General Discussion

General DiscussionWhat hero can stop sf at mid. Or any tips how to outlane that hero

What hero can stop sf at mid. Or any tips how to outlane that hero in General Discussion
ris

    Any tips or advice

    one syllable anglo-saxon

      ta/lina

      but then ure stuck with ta/lina as ur mid so its kind of a double-edged sword

      Väinämöinen

        viper? or did that change with the hero rework

        also pos 4 heros. whenever i had an sf on the other team it felt like ez mmr.

        just pick sk/sb, run at him lvl 1 with oov and stop him from getting souls.

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        Toudou Kirin

          od is kinda strong, just banish him so he doesnt get souls.
          i guess dk is okay against him, dk doesnt win but also doesnt lose^^
          tinker and qop should also work fine, since they can either harrass him away or miss cs with laser.

          special mention: pick skywrath mid and kill him anytime he shows up

          also he is vulnerable to ganks (slow, no escpae, low hp pool) so make sure to gank him->get vision in jungle (where sf wants to recover)->gank him again->and again

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          Väinämöinen

            ^ or even sky pos 4. lvl 1 q with 2 clarities guarantees an SF with no souls for quiet sole time (unless rotations happen)

            Vertoxity

              Tinker?

              Deny his farm. He has low damage at start. Block creeps since you don't have to go for runes anymore.

              Shou

                Tinker wins until lvl 3, at which point sf wins. Qop loses the lane, od needs to win the first wave and get ahead, vipers early levels are nerfed with the rework so he isn't nearly as good as he used to be with the poison attack CD. By the time poison attack gets on lvl 3-4 sf has already gotten ahead and can basically triple raze kill u if u rnt careful. Dk is ok, but sf going boots first after starting items can again kill you at lvl 3. The absolute best bet is TA, refraction gimps sf. The biggest problem with sf rn is that he wins almost every mid matchup, the only reliable way to win the matchup is the roaming play of ur pos 4. POS 4 picks are what gimp sf.
                Also can u explain why u think Lina wins mid against sf?

                nr

                  OD is pretty strong tho , spam Q and watch him run around looking for his missing mana pool Krappa

                  DC.MASON

                    ^ that's not going to work

                    JDF8

                      the solution to sf is support heroes

                      DC.MASON

                        yeah, reversed buff of the max souls makes him suffer a lot more from early deaths than before

                        nr

                          Yeah i know im just joking tho, but od is decent

                          Vertoxity

                            "Tinker wins until lvl 3, at which point sf wins"

                            What the fuck is this bullshit? How you came up with that stupid conclusion of the year, would you be so kind to explain it?

                            ". Qop loses the lane"

                            She doesn't. QOP can win against SF very easily just like SF can win against her.

                            "vipers early levels are nerfed with the rework so he isn't nearly as good as he used to be with the poison attack CD. By the time poison attack gets on lvl 3-4 sf has already gotten ahead and can basically triple raze kill u if u rnt careful."

                            AJHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA. ARE YOU FUCKING REALISTIC? USE YOUR FUCKING BRAIN. LOL

                            "Dk is ok, but sf going boots first after starting items can again kill you at lvl 3. "

                            LOL. HAHAHAHHAA> DK is ok? AHAHAHA.XD XD XD

                            "Also can u explain why u think Lina wins mid against sf?"

                            No we can't. We don't explain things to arrogant fucktards like you.

                            Oh god, I have to admit, BLUNT WAS RIGHT!

                            one syllable anglo-saxon

                              Also can u explain why u think Lina wins mid against sf?

                              its not that she wins in the way say mk wins vs ember mid or viper wins vs dk mid, its more that she has a way to constantly damage him +take cs without getting 2x/3x razed every time she attempts this, so he cant just cs and deny everything like he does vs 80% of other heroes and has to either raze the wave and fuck off or have supports camp his lane, which is good enough in my book

                              later in the game ure also one of the better heroes against him i feel, despite the fact that sf is a better version of lina atm

                              Shou

                                ^ok, that makes sense

                                its pretty simple why sf beats tinker at lvl 3, he cant tank 3 razes, and now that sf is much faster than tinker, he can literally walk up to him and triple raze if tinker isnt close enough to his tower
                                qop is similar, she is fine early, but lvl 3 sf powerspike just deals too much dmg, if she positions incorrectly she can just die.
                                dk is ok, but he is melee, meaning its super easy for sf to set up triple raze, the dk may not die at lvl 3, but at lvl 5 its definitely enough dmg.
                                im not being arrogant, if u wud have the fucking braincells to at least have a discussion or argument instead of spamming "hahaaa" then maybe we can figure this out, instead of having u look like an asshat.

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                                ywn

                                  One Punch Man

                                  <darth>

                                    Kunkka? Idk works for me in potato bracket.

                                    Vertoxity

                                      Tinker will beat SF anytime, anywhere. I sugest reading change about deying creeps and what it does - because u literally don't understand why SF won't get level 5 anytime soon if Tinker is semi-decent.

                                      Not to mention that only brain-damaged people would eat a 3 raze combo for no reason - most of the players usually BACK DOWN after 1 or 2 razes at worst.

                                      Tinker has tools to deal with SF and he can't really win the lane alone, but ,what he can is - get help from supports or trade farm farming jungle with razes and clearing mid lane with razes too.

                                      So even if he can't win, he'll get a lot of gold because of razes... The issue is that if Tinker denies at least 60% of ranged creeps combined with meele ones, which is at worst - SF will be a lot behind in lvls and he won't get that much needed lvl 3/5 fast.

                                      On the other hand - if Tinker gets his lvls and items fast - it's already GG if he's semi-decent.

                                      Shou

                                        u cant deny all the ranged creeps because sf can just raze them

                                        Shou

                                          its only works lvl 1 and maybe 2

                                          DC.MASON

                                            tinker didnt beat sf after he got buffed
                                            not sure how is it after latest patch

                                            unbreakable spirit

                                              Yeah sure man sf walks up to Tinker and tries to raze him, Tinker just stands there like a passive bot sure 😂😂😂

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                                              Eddie

                                                I love watching hs vs ns players argue it's funny

                                                Emperor Xu Mail

                                                  everything in this thread is fine, except the person who said DK is ok against SF. That is as far from the truth as it gets. SF is a hard counter to DK in lane. SF will trash DK mid ten times out of ten. Also, OD will lose against SF. SF has better animation, waveclear, attack speed etc. etc.

                                                  As for the original question, Skywrath, TA, Huskar, Viper and Kunkka at lvl.6

                                                  Chiwa

                                                    Sf win against tinker

                                                    Laser cd got nerf few patches ago
                                                    Sf have higher ms now
                                                    Tower is near to river now
                                                    Lv1 raze deal retarded damage

                                                    faw

                                                      just play better than sf lol

                                                      ywn

                                                        just ward his jungel LOOOOOOOOL 4House

                                                        one syllable anglo-saxon

                                                          how people even lose to sf mid?
                                                          just cs and dont get hit by razes =)

                                                          MightyPion

                                                            Windranger can be quite fairly decent, although it is more equal lane then autowin (Windranger vs. Huskar is autowin).

                                                            Reasoning is such:

                                                            1: WR is capable of trading rightclicks early on in lane. SF wants to farm not to trade rightclicks, so if you make him trade rightclicks it is pretty good.
                                                            2: Mobile enough to not get double, let alone triple razed
                                                            3: Can engage from beyond visual sight range
                                                            4: Is considerably harder to gank then SF
                                                            5: WR has quite sizeable solo kill potential on SF at level 6, provided she gets an early javelin by that time.

                                                            In lane, WR is massively more powerful at level 1, so use the level 1 time to wittle down SF. He cannot trade with you, and cannot possibly have raze at this point. You may opt to maximize your advantadge with an early orb of venom (effectively +15 damage per shot vs heroes) , but dual nulls are more standard.
                                                            SF improves at level 3 by quite a bit, but level 3 is also when you get level 2 powershot which is quite a bunch of damage as well. It depends, I would argue that powershotting SF is easer then shadowrazing wr, but that is just my opinion.

                                                            Wr get a massive spike with Ult + a javelin, because this can quite rapidly and comparably easily solokill an SF.
                                                            SF only gets solokill potential on WR later (unless he is a significantly better player), and well, if you kill SF but die you come out massively ahead, and Wind is quite good at that.

                                                            Shou

                                                              i love it when people are not up to date with their matchup knowledge

                                                              Carl

                                                                Feel Good inc is just a noob irl, ignore him and he will go away.

                                                                I agree, SF destroy qop and tinker in lane But tinker wins late so it doesnt mather bruh :)

                                                                HartzFear

                                                                  I can give you some 3k ex bluestar insights: Medusa and brewmaster both completly dumbster sf from min 0 until min 120.

                                                                  core or whore

                                                                    Ta is the easiest to execute.

                                                                    Then i favor qop next.

                                                                    Lina might be good but havent seen the hero that much now.

                                                                    Heroes you need to avoid:

                                                                    Sf > tinker od invoker dk
                                                                    When i play sf i pretty much win my lane HARD when against these heroes 100%

                                                                    Feachairu

                                                                      i wonder if my pugna works on sfs now,didnt touch it for so long already
                                                                      i think pl destroy him like real hard on lane..i think

                                                                      HaNSoLo

                                                                        Pudge

                                                                        bearcat0611

                                                                          Viper is my go to pick but he's always my go to pick, dk tinker and od seem bad. Qop will lose the lane in a 1v1 but will win the lane with ganks. TA defenitely seems like the best option if you play the hero but otherwise probably at least wont lose the lane. Huskar may work but that seems a little high risk.

                                                                          Konson

                                                                            Hello. I am spamming mid SF myself right now and have some questions as well, if you'd be so nice:

                                                                            I've played mid SF vs OD once, and yes, I'm a filthy 1.3k scrub but OD felt so strong spamming that damn astralban. Can anybody please walk me through this, how does SF win against OD everytime if OD spams astralban?

                                                                            Personally, I didn't feel like Tinker was strong agains me, but in my vs Tinker match Clock was camping mid for me so he was hurt in farm and had a delayed BoT. In this match I decided to practice a farming pattern so I let him farm a bit after I cleared wave then afk'd everytime. This gave me like 2 to 3 lvls advantage, I just stomped the game later. I know Laser feels annoying but you can always scare him off with hazes. Also, I did a thing, will tell more about it in last paragraph.

                                                                            I saw D2Bowie once comment on a video on YouTube that BloodSeeker is one of the few heroes right now who can face SF 1 vs 1. Would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this.

                                                                            I don't know about Viper, in my first time practicing my farm pattern in vs bot match (hard bot setting) I laned against Viper and he felt pretty strong, but then again, I'm a filthy sub2k scrub, maybe I just should git gudder. Also this was when I was trying something new out so maybe I screwed someway I wouldn't now.

                                                                            The reason I started to spam SF in the first place, btw, is because I was feeling like the man, spamming lastpick mid Meepo, when suddenly I got this smurf against me mid as SF and he just wiped me out of the match. It felt so embarassing; so I've watched him in replay and now I'm trying to mimic his farming pattern, i even added and commended him.

                                                                            One last thing, I and my friends are doing a Clock + SF thing. This was done in the aforementioned vs Tinker match, which I stomped. I know it's frowned upon by quite a few people but basically we set some cogs (Clock's W) in fountain, I deny them so I got 12 Necromastery souls before minute 0:00. Any way to play around this as the enemy midlaner? I mean I've never laned vs a SF who could hit creeps in first wave harder than me, but this feels OP from where I stand (as SF).

                                                                            Emperor Xu Mail

                                                                              "I saw D2Bowie once comment on a video on YouTube that BloodSeeker is one of the few heroes right now who can face SF 1 vs 1. Would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this." - Wrong, he said even bs can't face him now because he is a melee who casts damage amp on himself. He's food for razes.

                                                                              In SF vs OD please remember that your animation and projectile speed are way faster and better than OD. Which means you will win last hit battles. You're struggling with astral. The trick is to not come into its range. Get boots and a wind lace then raze him everytime he steps in towards you and back off. Keep the wave in your highground. The idea with this new sf is to keep razing the long range one on the enemy to keep a stack up. When OD keeps getting long razed every so often and gets middlerazed when he moves to astral he will decide the trade is not worthwhile and not go for those astral plays. After lvl 6/7 sf is not even supposed to stay in lane, so just double raze the wave go farm jungle. OD will struggle with a large creepwave because first, he's slow on clearing it, second, he cannot clear jungle as fast as SF can. You will outfarm and outlevel and OD mid if its a 1v1. Ganks of course, will change the outcome but it is your lane to lose.

                                                                              Ysa: Supp is Life

                                                                                if its 1v1 without any roamers Lina will rape SF at mid yet SF will rape invo qop tinker OD any matchups.

                                                                                Vandal

                                                                                  Sniper and Huskar are fine

                                                                                  100% WINRATE MASTER

                                                                                    od. the rest are manageable with accurate razes

                                                                                    bibotot1995

                                                                                      TA is the classics counter, but she's quite bad at the moment with 45% winrate, so I would not recommend winning the lane against SF only to lose the game.

                                                                                      Razor is pretty good right now and so is Tinker.

                                                                                      Zen

                                                                                        im gonna read this gem on the bus

                                                                                        inx4c

                                                                                          Sf beats anything after lvl 3 in 1v1
                                                                                          In some matchups if sf fucks up early hes fucked up later as well though, for example vs viper
                                                                                          if u wanna shut down sf then just bring in 1 extra hero and sf will die almost every time. The best +1 imo is tusk
                                                                                          TA is dogshit against sf on lane(basically a melee hero) She is fine against him later though.
                                                                                          OD is fucking terrible against sf in lane
                                                                                          Qop is a hero like viper against sf, if u get a lot done before sf is 3, u will most likely snowball that game as well. But if sf doesnt fuck up early, he will shit on qop.
                                                                                          Invoker can be good against sf, but at around when sf is lvl 3 and smart enough to get boots he has really good potential to kill invoker

                                                                                          "Tinker wins until lvl 3, at which point sf wins"

                                                                                          What the fuck is this bullshit? How you came up with that stupid conclusion of the year, would you be so kind to explain it?

                                                                                          sf shits on tinker after lvl 3. if tinker walks up to laser, he will lose half of his hp. Sf gets to cs everything and deny everything afterwards.

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                                                                                          Feachairu

                                                                                            wat about pl and pugna?
                                                                                            wat about dp

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                                                                                            inx4c

                                                                                              nope, not alone

                                                                                              Jacked

                                                                                                Pretty sure ursa just whoops Sf in the ass but no one has realised it yet. Sit on his hill lvl 1 and he can't do anything. When he gets his razes you have to be safe but after level 6 ez game report mid gg ez

                                                                                                Toudou Kirin

                                                                                                  i still dont see dk, tinker,od and qop losing mid to sf when both players have equal skill... the argument "he can triple raze you" is only valid if you suck at positioning or let him control the runes (for mana sustain). he will never ever reach qop with all 3 razes (qop has a slow and a blink). and he wont reach od with all 3 razes (just banish him when he wants to raze and has alrdy hit one). dk with a qb will get the first 2 waves completely free and then have enough hp pool to survuve razes. and i dont see sf walking up to tinker with 2 lvl in laser and 2 in march and kill tinker... i think there is alwys room for counter play.

                                                                                                  and about lina: she has super sick starting dmg right now and can bully sf easy out of lane

                                                                                                  AloneInKyōto

                                                                                                    ^ sf doesnt need runes anymore, clarities and raindrop are enough retard

                                                                                                    ywn

                                                                                                      TA is dogshit against sf on lane(basically a melee hero)

                                                                                                      lol mby u are nub at ta :thinking: :axe_laugh:

                                                                                                      core or whore

                                                                                                        ^
                                                                                                        Yeah how is ta dogshit against sf?
                                                                                                        @inxac??