BAM IM GONNA STREAM IT WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. I KNOW YOU WANT TO WATCH AND FOLLOW. GEEZ.
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1st 92/13 Naga Siren with Tranq + quelling + pms + soulring + branch (of good game) + 3k + almost lvl 11 (no towers)
2nd 94/6 Brood with PMS + 3 Sobimasks (forgot chicken) + 3.8k + halfway 10
Yes it is important that you have good cs against no one in lane if you know the enemy batrider is just jungling but its about getting as much as you can so you should abuse the jungle and get as much as you can
What level of farm is considered good depends on the level at which you play.
The average 10 min farm for a diamond level Antimage this month is 63.98 lasthits and 3.60 denies.
The average 10 min farm for a bronze level Antimage this month is 38.57 lasthits and 1.06 denies.
Your cs in a real game is much more meaningful than against nothing or against bots. If you want to practice against bots just keep track of your personal scores and see how much you can improve. But it is never the same in a real game for the reasons I listed in an earlier post.
Antimage is the easiest hero to use for farming in a real game. Faceless Void also tries to start the game just farming...but his lasthit average scores are 32.77 Bronze and 46.36 Diamond.
Range heroes have even more difficulty. Diamond Sniper averages 40.55 while Bronze Sniper averages 27.27 lasthits at 10 min.
Dotabuff does not currently show your 10 min for every game. But I recommend just pulling up the replay of some carry game you played recently and taking a look at the first 10 min. That way you can see what number you got but also why you missed what you missed.
If you are missing because of harassment that has different solution than if you are missing because of not knowing how to lasthit under tower or just missing because of bad timing...or missing because you did not control the lane...or missing because you died.
105~ last hits on a lane vs lone druid + jungling (12 mins of farm); he managed to get some of their creeps killed behind their t1. Had 5 min~ midas for farm accelerating.
I think my last hits are probably below the bronze average HAHAHA >< i think i just have bad timing and i always click on the wrong creeps etc. just bad mechanical skills overall T.T what shld i do to improve?
For melee heroes, definitely get quelling blade. Some people like to pretend they don't need it...but if you can get just 8-10 more cs you have paid for it. Consider how many cs you actually miss in the first 10 min. For nearly all players on all heroes its far more than 10.
Another way to make lasthitting easier is to get phase boots. Remember treads is only a tiny bit more dps than phase until your get your first major damage item...and only if you remember to treads switch (if you don't phase is actually a tiny bit more dps early in the game).
Qblade dramatically increasing your jungling speed as a any melee carry hero. Farming 32% more creeps/minute in the jungle is a really big deal. Get Qblade even if your lasthitting is perfect if you expect to spend any time jungling. If your dmg is 75, then qblade (225 gold) is as much dmg as a Mithril Hammer (1600 gold). If your dmg is 144 it is as much dmg as a Demon Edge (2400 gold). The time to drop your qblade is basically not until you have 4 major items and you sell it to get the 5th...unless you get BoT next in which case its still better for farm rate to keep qblade until you have 6 slot.
I have to disagree relentless. If you are a melee hero and are expected to farm- start with a quelling blade ONLY if you randomed or pulled from supports. In normal, pub lanes the most important item for lasthitting is a stout shield. The reason behind it is simple= yeah, quelling blade allows you to get more cs, but people will see that you can be easily harrased and they will push you out of lane. With a stout shield csing is harder(and still possible) but you will suffer so much LESS dmg. I know some melee carries have very poor base dmg (naga, jug etc.), but personally i think that being able to SURVIVE in order to last hit from the start is pretty important. And you can always buy a quelling in the side shop. What is more, a quelling blade isnt an item that allows you to "learn" properly and some people are simply lazy and tend to take it for EVERY carry (void with a quelling on lane? with ~65-70 base dmg? you would really have to hate the creeps).
That is the prevailing attitude among many people who miss a ton of cs they could have obtained with qblade. The average lasthits for Diamond level Anti-mage at 10 min is 64. That means they missed 16. Everyone else is even worse.
If you are a real pro carry who gets 95% cs without qblade fine...but that's basically nobody.
If you are tanking tons of harass as a carry then your supports are crap and you can't farm the lane no matter what. In situations like this the jungle farm becomes paramount to catch up what you lost...and so get qblade to jungle 32% faster.
^what? You're giving advice to a player who said he's below bronze level and you suggest qblade to last hit which is fine and all. But you always have the attitude to disregard most players suggestions. Silvers suggestion is very valid especially for players inthe normal bracket. Spending 225 gold just to last hit better in lane can prove disastrous. It's fine if he gets it 2-3 mins ingame at side shop. It's usually bad in normal bracket to get qblade first item. This leaves you with about 375 gold for regen and stats. In a normal bracket game, don't expect supports to pool u with regen, expect t be in a dual lane against a dual lane. Expect to be harassed badly. If you're harass bad, qblade makes it not effective as an an item. I understand if its against a solo offlane then maybe in most cases qblade is better but @relentlrss, tellin him to go qblade as a melee carry all the time and blame supports if u get harass is bad advice. In most situations, it isn't the extra damage missing that causes players to miss out on last hit, it is the pressure of someone dealin damage to u everytime u last hit.
I don't disregard mistaken ideas. I correct them. Disregarding would be to ignore what was written.
No, I did not say "blame supports". It's simply a fact that if you are the carry and you are taking a lot of harass it IS because your support is bad...AND you stand there taking it for no reason. Or maybe you have some extremely stupid lane like Riki+PA dual lane. Even so...you still only take harass by standing in range to take it.
Now blaming them won't help but...if your support is bad stout shield does not fix that fact you can't farm. What will make up for your poor early farm is qblade. It will accelerate your farm dramatically any time you start jungling even if it is at 20 min into the game...also no one in High or Very High, or pro games pools regen to carries for them to farm against harass. That is a very wasteful use of regen. You give them regen after a gank to keep them in the lane. You prevent harass by controlling the lane.
If you can't farm from harass then you can't farm. Taking 20 less dmg per attack will not change it. Now, when you go up to lasthit in a dual lane you should not stand near the creep animation cancelling. That is how it is possible for the players with poor mouse skills to click on you to do a harassing attack. Instead you dance forward when you are going to get the lasthit (you have qblade so a deny is impossible) You hit the creep one time with no animation canceling and you go back. It will not be possible for a typical Normal level support to hit you more than once, usually they will fail to hit you even once. That is the reality of what happens in a Normal level game when you use correct lasthitting technique.
And if its really such a big deal...5 lasthits and you can afford your precious stout shield. Of course if you get it first instead of qblade first...then you can't lasthit because your dmg is too low. Any game you have a choice to walk out with stout shield or qblade on a melee carry, Qblade is always superior.
Stout Shield into PMS is for offlane heroes. It is not for carries. It is for someone who will take many right clicks and wants to be able to trade hits with a support if needed. It can also be ok for some jungle heroes...but really its for the jungle heroes that should be in a lane. The heroes that are best in the jungle do not need stout shield because they should never be tanking creeps.
^mm good explanation. Might start buyin qblade and see if I can orientate my gameplay towards what you said. I guess what I want to say about stout shield is that whenever I see someone in lane that requires farm without stout shield, it encourages me to harass even more.
Here is something else to consider. Lets compare Ring of Protection (175 gold). Stout Shield (250 gold) Poor Mans Shield (550 gold) and
0 or 1 set of tangoes
Now I just watched 4 replays of Normal level games and the most attacks any of the supports actually used on an enemy carry was 7 in the first ten minutes. One game they did 1 attack during the first ten minutes. But lets consider better aggressive supports than that.
Suppose Spectre chooses to spend his gold on these options. Spectre starts with 511 base hp and 3 base armor. If he takes harrasing attacks from a range hero who has 55 dmg how do these items compare?
If spectre can farm 2 cs/wave (lets be realistic for Normal farm) then he can afford Ring of Health by 6 minutes. How much harrass can he take during that time?
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Ring of Protection (175 gold)...optional 90 gold of tangoes
If Spectre takes 1 harrasing attack every creep wave, in the first 6 min with RoP that will hit him for 41 dmg 12 times for a total of 492 dmg...assuming he didn't skill any points in dispersion. Base hp regen regains 360 hp during that time and he gains 114 hp from leveling up to 4..so he will be at about 493 hp after 6 min of harrassment...this is not enough to push him off the lane even if he had no regen.
What if he takes 2 harrasing attacks every creep wave? Then he has to eat 1 set of 3 tangoes to stay in the lane and will end up taking 984 dmg, healing 360 from base regen, 114 from leveling, and 345 from tangoes ending at 346 hp. He might be feeling a bit low, but at this point he has his RoH and its no problem again.
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Stout Shield (250 gold) ...optional 90 gold of tangoes
If Spectre takes 1 harrasing attack every creep wave, in the first 6 min with SS that will hit him for 46 dmg 5 times and 26 dmg 7 times for a total of 412 dmg...assuming he didn't skill any points in dispersion. Base hp regen regains 360 hp during that time and he gains 114 hp from leveling up to 4..so he will be at about 573 hp after 6 min of harrassment...this is not enough to push him off the lane even if he had no regen.
What if he takes 2 harrasing attacks every creep wave? Then he has to eat 1 set of 3 tangoes to stay in the lane and will end up taking 824 dmg, healing 360 from base regen, 114 from leveling, and 345 from tangoes ending at 551 hp. He might be feeling a bit low, but at this point he has his RoH and its no problem again.
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Poor Man's Shield (550 gold) ... no money for tangoes
If Spectre takes 1 harrasing attack every creep wave, in the first 6 min with PMS that will hit him for 26 dmg 12 times for a total of 312 dmg...assuming he didn't skill any points in dispersion. Base hp regen regains 360 hp during that time and he gains 114 hp from leveling up to 4..so he will be at about 625 (max hp) after 6 min of harrassment...this is not enough to push him off the lane even if he had no regen.
What if he takes 2 harrasing attacks every creep wave? Then he will end up taking 624 dmg, healing 360 from base regen, 114 from leveling, ending at 361 hp. He might be feeling a bit low, but at this point he has his RoH and its no problem again.
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So realistically harassing down a melee carry hero requires at least 3 attacks per creep wave. And Normal level supports really can't do that if you lasthit correctly (ie don't stand in range of them animation cancelling). When you have quellling blade you can just walk up and take 1 attack to secure the last hit and retreat to safety. You can also see that it would be far more efficient to begin with RoP than SS since RoP builds into many of the items a carry would want anyway...while SS goes to PMS or Vangaurd, both bad for carries.
If you get Ring of Regen, after that Ring of Protection => could go to tranquil boots or Vlads, then your regen is about 90 hp/creep wave...you will heal faster than 2 attacks worth of dmg/wave. Anyway these are the things you need to think about when either trying to cs against harrass or trying to harass a carry. If you don't do at least 3 attacks every wave its not going anywhere. And if you can do 3 attacks/wave then Stout Shield wont save the carry. Fortunately for carry players...when you reach a level of play where the enemy support is capable of clicking on you 3 times every creep wave despite you moving around...your support should also be good enough to stop them from doing it.
If you are the carry think about it this way...natural regen lets you take 1 attack every creep wave. Each set of tangoes you got lets you take 1 more. If you got 2 sets of tangoes you can take 3 attacks/wave no problem. Just make sure you get the cs so that when your tangoes are gone you have an item. Getting qblade ensures that you have the item you need before the tangoes run out. Note that the blocked dmg from RoP, SS, or PMS could all have been replaced easily by their cost in tangoes...in fact the tangoes are better choice in all 3 cases....and they heal against spell harrasment which the other 3 don't block. But if you are building something with RoP in it anyway you may as well get it.
Ok... now lets assume the support is stacking and pulling(we do that on normal, we are not that bad). You will get hit by the creeps. They will deal a lot of dmg under tower. Yeah, eventually you will pull the enemy creep wave towards your next creeps, but still, you will get tons of dmg. And in the jungle the creeps will hurt you as well if you try meleeing them to death.
And i agree with flying pigs, if i see a melee witout a shield, it encourages me to hit them every now and then. And maybe i am a bad support, but im frustrated when i see a carry im on the lane with that buys a quelling and i have to give him regen after a few minutes, cause he got hit every time he wanted to cs. (well, that "maybe" was exaregated, i AM a bad dota player)
^Relentless <If you are a real pro carry who gets 95% cs without qblade fine...but that's basically nobody.>
You don't have to be pro to hit a perfect last-hitting result. On some absolutely free lane I can get 80/80 (no catapults included). Even though, that's not the way to farm on an abandoned lane. You gotta push the lane and get into jungle till the lane pulls back, out of enemy tower range.
It's not only about QB but about the tower hits as well. Last hitting under the tower is not that easy when the amount of damage the towers does can differ. I am generally really unlucky about it that I miss a lot of last hits.
^i recently find that the wait for three tower hit @ catapults kinda iffy. After 3 tower hits, the catapult still somehow has enough hp to withstand my 60dmg. maybe i subconsciously only waited for two instead of 3. Does anyone encounter this phenomenon? Ill have a look at my replay now.
LOL basically what relentless is saying is that stout shield sucks, should pick QB or Ring of protection over it. That's great advice. And if i got it right, uh as a melee carry am i supposed to walk up directly to a creep and last hit without animation cancelling then walk back? I'll go and try it in my next few games! :D
Only 2 questions.
You guys have talked a lot about melee heroes and getting quelling blade. What about ranged heroes? Any tips?
And what should i do to improve? ):
Btw, just wanted to say you guys are providing awesome feedback and its really nice of you guys to take out time to discuss this :D
Well, to be more precise he said that a stout shield sucks for a melee carry on a safe lane. For ranged... i think i can use Relentless' ideas- regen, stats and a ring of protection if required. Quelling and stout shield are pathetic on ranged heroes, so these options shouldnt be considered.
Silvers is right, qblade and stout are far weaker on range heroes. If you are a range hero it is best to pick up extra dmg for last hitting from a Ring of Basilius (start RoP), then build into aquila. That is the best choice for the vast majority of range agi heroes. If you are really struggling...get phase to make it easier as I mentioned before.
Van-art you appear to be very good at lasthitting.. still I doubt you have ever actually hit the first 80 lasthits in a real game. Many excellent players who do not critically evaluate their replays believe they must get the first 80 sometimes...but this is actually extremely rare. I have only seen 4 players do it to date : Loda, Burning, Black, Beesa. I have only seen each of them achieve this 1 time.
Recently a number of excellent farmers on dotabuff scoffed at my explanations of why they could not do it...they all went out intentionally to prove they could. And they all failed. You may get over 70/80 sometimes. But perfection is harder than people tend to imagine. It's also not that important. Usually it is not worth the focus required to get all the lasthits even for the tiny handful of experts who can do it...the price in missed opportunities for a hero kill or missing incoming ganks is too high.
Also you're point about what should be done with an abandoned lane is exactly right. Static farming it is usually the wrong move.
Relentless, I don't think you realise that a majority of new dota players and some who have played quite a lot of games will miss CS with no contention in the lane.
Plus some heroes (drow for example) need a few games played with just to be able to last hit vs creeps only.
Not only do I know that new players will miss a lot....I said everyone will. Qblade will reduce those misses dramatically for melee heroes. People should practice with Qblade because it is a good item choice and they should be getting it.
so does that mean that stout shield first item is a no go? Since if ure a melee carry, qbladee is the way to go and range carry, ring of protection? o.O
Stout shield is very good on offlane heroes who need to trade harass to stay near the lane. There are lot of heroes that can be played offlane and would do well with a Stout Shield...the agi ones upgrading to PMS and everyone else either selling or making Vanguard....Even some range heroes might want to get it offlane...but these are the heroes I think can use Stout Shield most effectively offlane (BH, Axe, Bristleback, Centaur, Clockwerk, Doom, Skeleton King, Slardar, Slark, Sven, Timbersaw, Treant, Troll, UD)
Undying with Stout Shield can be shockingly difficult to kill, even when he appears to have low hp. The same is true for BB, Sven, Timbersaw, and Treant. Large hp and armor early with block as well...attacking these heroes with low level supports is just going to tickle them.
Thanks for the continuous influx of ideas in improving's one's farming. I think my reply is long overdue :D
Reply re free farm training:
[1] You face no opposition competing for the lasthit so the correct timing window is absurdly large.
--> There is only one timing window for last hitting and that is the final "X" hp of a creep where X HP <= you OR your enemy's damage.
The difference would be aside from you and creep's damage, you are adding a factor of enemy's damage. Such factor can only be trained in an 1) actual game 2) last hit practice w/ a friend 3) Unfair bots.
[2] You face no risk from harassment or ganks so your mind and your movements are improperly practicing habits that will get you killed in a real game...again making it possible to lasthit more than you really can get away with doing.
--> This is good reminder.
[3] You face no disruption of the pattern so you cannot correctly practice restoring equalibrium, countering the impact of the enemy heroes attempts to change it.
--> To a certian extent, you should still be able to apply equilibrium concept. Initially I didn't want to hit the creep unless it was a Last Hit or Deny. But since the damage output of Creeps vs Creeps is "almost" same, then I would once in a while hit an enemy creep once, then LAST HIT it so that I still have the window to DENY my own creep. Depending on the situation, this may happen multiple times which could lead to 6v4 creeps on the 2nd or 3rd wave - which would then turn into pushing the lane. If I do this too much, it will be harder for me to DENY because the creep wave will be closer to the enemy tower, thus, i.e. in the 3rd wave, I should do it the opposite way, must hit my own creep once, then DENY it to restore equilibrium. I just gave an example but these are all situational.
The missing factor here would be ENEMY HERO's damage -- but the concept should roughly be the same, just that the application my be different. i.e. Enemy used a skill to push out the creep wave, you might have to use a skill also to even it out.
[4] You face no large changes in the damage dealt. The real pattern of when to correctly attack is much different because your damage and enemy damage increases shift the window.
--> Agree.
[5] You face no large changes in attack speed so you cannot learn to adjust your timing correctly.
--> Agree. That's why I'm only talking about the first 10 minutes. I have a "write-up" I haven't posted yet which is another training where I can buy items, use skill, flash farm or push tower.
[6] You face no reason to change the creep equilibrium due to the game situation. In a real game you should hold, push, flash farm or pull the wave back depending on what is happening and this often changes from one wave to the next.
--> This training is not meant to include all the factors that a "real game" would. You could think more of this as a drill where you can get to know the attack animation of your hero, proper mindset and focus on damage output of all things in play that would affect your last hitting, and probably mechanics as well, provided that you shouldn't get lazy in your positioning and movement as what you've pointed in #2.
The only thing you practice when you play with no skills and no items against no one is the pure mechanics of lasthtting the first wave or two if you are on an abandoned defensive tri-lane That is just not worth doing. Instead you should practice against players trying to stop you in a real game or at least against "unfair" bots.
If its mouse clicking you are trying to improve...doing 1,150,000 clicks is not going to make you any better than 1,100,000 clicks. If you want to really change your ability to lasthit in a game you need to look at changing something substantial about how you play, something in decision making, objectives, or style...you cannot get significantly better at mouse clicking. Some people are very talented at it...most are not.
You will see a large improvement in your lasthitting on a particular hero if you have played 10+ games of that hero in the past week. But then once you are again familiar with the timing of that hero you won't get better. Because of this, at any given time players are out of practice lasthitting with nearly all the heroes.
--> The advantage of doing this drill is you could restart and do it over and over again at any point in time. Say you noticed that you keep on making the same mistake -- i.e. 2 enemy creeps with low HP and 1 ally creep with low HP. you could instantly repeat it and be critical and sensitive as to why it's happening. Should have I recognized it earlier that that will happen hence I should have quickly killed the other creep instead of just waiting for it? etc.. Real game situation may not give you enough focus to correct such a mistake since you will be thinking of a lot of other stuff.
My point in this training is to clean-up the basics of your mechanics and make "last hit mindset (damage output calculation, timing, equilibirum)" innate to yourself
Black Xargon, the fact is you have already attempted to click a mouse on a small target during a small window of time probably over 1 million times. You cannot really mechanically improve your ability to do it. 2 million tries won't do it or 3 or 10 million.
Many other things in your life, in plenty of sports or job situations...many other things can be mechanically improved with practice. But those actions have been practiced only a few hundred to a few thousand times. Clicking a mouse is really already as good as it will get. If you have world class talent for mouse control...great! If you are below average, well that's how it's going to stay.
If your equipment is bad (ie bad lag, some unresponsive roller mouse) that could make a difference. But practice clicking will not.
What you can practice is recognizing the patterns that occur in real game situations and understanding how to change them. What you can practice is seeing the game situation and adjusting to push or pull the lane. What you can practice is recent familiarity with a particular heroes attack animation.
You need to connect real in-game situations in your mind and muscle memory to the action of lasthitting for it to be productive. It is harder to see errors in-game, but that is not artificial. It really IS that hard. Making it artificially easy by removing the complexity doesn't make you able to do the hard version. Since it is hard to see errors in-game -- you should watch replays to see and understand them. This is a much more effective way to fix the wrong decisions and positioning...to see what you really did and the effect it really had. That is true not only for laning, but every other aspect of the game. Watch your replays.
But if you enjoy lasthitting practice against bots, don't let me stop you. It's sort of like a mini-game. I know a lot of people do enjoy doing it. I just don't want people to think that they need to force themselves to do this in hopes of improving. Lots of people pay money trying to copy the exercise regimes of naturally athletic beautiful, strong people hoping to look like them. It will never work. My brother and I who got a perfect score on a standardized test with no practice or preparation were hired to teach a teach a very expensive class on a preparatory system for the standardized test along with a handful of other people who also got perfect scores without trying. Rich kids parents wanted them to all get genius scores too...but that did not work because the method was just for show. People who were geniuses got perfect scores and had no prep. In the same way, some people are vastly better at lasthitting than most people can ever be. They don't practice more, its just easy for them. So I think it is better to focus on improving the things that do not depend so heavily on natural talent.
my record was 70 cs at 10 minutes against a double lane, didn't use the jungle at all and i dont know why people use the jungle either to compensate for missing cs
He somehow recommends that stout shield on a safe carry is much better than a quelling blade. I know he might not be a professional gamer by any means but surely he is somewhere up there?
I wanted to post that link as well, but the topic went back to the original form, so i opted not to do that after all... The link speaks for itself i guess.
Purge says a lot of things...some of it is not ideal...even based on the assumption of bad play. For instance, in this video Purge says buy stout shield on a melee safelane carry because you will be tanking creeps because of the pull and "lose a serious amount of hp very fast"....yeah, if you are very bad and let them hit you...If Purge actually doesn't know how to take creep aggro off the tower without them hitting him um...well maybe he just assumes bad/new players can't do it? idk.
Purge reason to not get qblade first (though he does say to get it) is "he doesn't generally recommend it". Basically he has not thought about it and picks the recommend default build as his own because he just doesn't think about it. In summary of my earlier remarks...get qblade first so you have the dmg to lasthit immediately and can afford to buy whatever you need....if you get stout first you will miss the early, most difficult lasthits and can't afford any of the various options to stay in the lane. The reasoning Purge presents for starting items is almost nothing...and poorly considered.
Besides the details...his approach to how to choose starting item is basically wrong. The purpose of starting items is to get you to the point where you can begin picking up core items. Every starting item should be decided based on "What does this do to get me to my first and most important core item?" Purge starting item reasoning is based on "How do I not feed too much?"...which is somewhat understandable if you are speaking to total nubs whose main objective in a dota game is to not feed....but for people who are beyond Bronze level that is the wrong way to think about the game. Anyway that is why he says things in this video like "its always best to play it safe". No, in dota it is usually wrong to "play it safe". Playing it safe in every situation is a sure way to get a winrate below 50%.
you buy a stout shield to last hit under tower when your support is pulling, tell me how enter the matrix to avoid damage. maybe if you played actual very high games, you might have known this
you buy qblade if they have a furion or if you random a carry, if you insist qb > stout then it shows how bad you are at this game (which you are) and if you need qb to last hit better then my god you are bad
great kämey teaching scrubs since day 1 please advise shitters to my lectures, i'll give you C- on your essay relentless, get your facts straight next time for once
unfortunately everything you said is wrong
first of all with more than 90% of the melee heroes last hitting under the tower is easier without a quelling blade
you can always drop it but most people don't do that and you might ask yourself why you got it that early in the first place
you also don't pull the creepwave away from your tower and you should usually tank the creeps
if your supports are pulling and you pull the creeps that are arriving at your tower between tier 1 and tier 2 tower then you will have the next wave inside your tower as well , as both creep waves will naturally meet very close outside your tier 1 tower range (unless you want to actually push out that lane for some reason)
you also usually don't know what your lane is going to be
with a stout you can solo almost anything without taking too much damage and being reliant on excessive babysitting or supplies from your supports
id actually rather leave the well with 220 gold and buy a quelling blade at the side shop if my lane ends up being free and you shouldn't be actually missing more than 1 or 2 cs while farming a quelling blade (5 creeps)
if someone's actually in your lane contesting you and your support has bought all the supplies or maybe pooled your mid/offlane and you dont have a stout you can fuck up an easy lane very easily so that he either cant pull or that you actually dont have enough regen to zone the off lane out sufficiently or cripple your own farm
getting a ring of protection instead of a stout might be a good idea when you want to rush tranquils or an early basi
Ok anyways, I was confused so I decided to read a chunk of this thread.
@Relentless You talked about getting last hits at 10 mins and you showed some averages for the different skill levels. This is where your brain fumbled a bit and you're not thinking. You're telling me, in an average game, the "first" 10 mins Diamond level, AM averages 62.82 last hits?? Are you nuts? That means the AVERAGE Diamond level only misses 18 last hits in the first 10 mins which is clearly wrong.
The way Dotabuff calculated this number was to take the total number of last hits, divided it by whatever and getting the AVERAGE last hits per 10 mins. They did not calculate the "first" 10 mins, they calculated the average per 10 mins.
That would be totally wrong. Why do you believe it is coded like this? Is it just because you don't think the numbers are what you expected or do you have access to the code somehow?
Anyway, I don't believe this sort of mistake was made in their code. I don't believe it because
[1] the numbers of lasthits do make sense
[2] Dotabuff Plus has about 8,000 example games where the details are shown and correct.
It appears in the example games that the number of lasthits and denies is reported directly for every game at 10 min and at 20 min.
They have NO WAY of knowing the last hit every second of every minute. It does not say anything about the first 10 minutes, it just says 10 minutes. Here's a big hint on why its per 10 minutes and not the first 10 minutes -> I'm just going to go look at CM's average farm in "Diamond". It says "10.7" for 10 minutes. Do you in your right mind think that a CM would average 10.7 last hits for the first 10 mins? Or let's look at wisp, he's at "8.41" which is the lowest in Diamond. How the hell does a wisp average 8.41 last hits in the first 10 mins?
I see...so you are not basing this on some special knowledge. You are just presuming that they must have made a mistake because reality does not match your expectations.
Your incredulity is based on nothing. I play a ton of CM at Diamond level and I often have 10 last hits at 10 minutes. You have no idea what you are talking about. I might end the game with 20 lasthits...but 10 at 10 min is normal because I took them from the pulls.
In fact if the error you describe was really made, CM lasthits "per" 10 min would be more like 2 or 3. That fact that it is at 10.7 virtually proves you are wrong and the dotabuff stats are accurate.
You're undeniably wrong yet you continue to argue? If her average last hit per 10 mins is 2 or 3, that means by 60 mins she'll only have like 12 or 18 last hits? Lmao okay...
I thought that wasnt even the point. Why not argue why stout is so much better than qblade? :D cause i for one just usually get stout as a melee carry rather than a quelling blade. In my experience of dota gaming, I usually do worse with quelling blade as first item. Might be because i'm not good enough so I'm keen on more skilled players' opinions.
I supposed CM might be forced to take more cs late game to stop pushes, but there is no reason to believe dotabuff averaged the total cs/gametime to get those numbers.
http://dotabuff.com/heroes/anti-mage/performances Just take a look at the details. You can see the cs at 10 min and 20 min are directly reported. You say "They have NO WAY of knowing the last hit every second of every minute." as if that would logically preclude having 10 min data. I think they actually can get the last hit data from every second of every minute from the replay parser. But there is no need for that. You just need the 10 min mark to get this data.
It looks like 3 (maybe 4?) in the last month of games (last 100 games)...you have a stout shield build for all the 3 games you lost badly and did not get it the game you won. Its not much data. I was hoping maybe you had a game recent enough to look at the replay so I could show you how little the shield blocked and how you missed the early lasthits leading to slow farm...but they are all over a week old already. Next time you do play a melee safe-lane carry try the qblade I think you have not attempted this in a very long time. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you can do with it.
Meanwhile...pancakes is saying "with more than 90% of the melee heroes last hitting under the tower is easier without a quelling blade"
and "you also don't pull the creepwave away from your tower"...."you should usually tank the creeps". No one wonder new players can never figure out the game.
I guess maybe he is really doing this and Purge also? Kami the smurf stacker thinks you have to "enter the matrix" to not tank creeps. I thought this was really basic stuff you learn very early...actually I think even the tutorial explains not to tank the creep wave. Most likely these guys are just trolling...but please, do not tank the creep wave to control its position or to lasthit or get to them off the tower.
It's not very hard. All you have to do it get close enough to draw aggro and then move to where you want them to go. You can turn and lasthit the creeps as you are walking...you can even control which one the tower attacks next if you are good at it. I feel silly explaining this...but maybe Purge and these other experienced dota players really lasthit under tower by standing still, animation cancelling like they have Parkinsens and tanking as Purge says they will "lose a serious amount of hp very fast".
BAM IM GONNA STREAM IT WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. I KNOW YOU WANT TO WATCH AND FOLLOW. GEEZ.
SORRY CAPS BUT HERES WWW.TWITCH.TV/IWIN4POLAND
1st 92/13 Naga Siren with Tranq + quelling + pms + soulring + branch (of good game) + 3k + almost lvl 11 (no towers)
2nd 94/6 Brood with PMS + 3 Sobimasks (forgot chicken) + 3.8k + halfway 10
Yes it is important that you have good cs against no one in lane if you know the enemy batrider is just jungling but its about getting as much as you can so you should abuse the jungle and get as much as you can
What level of farm is considered good depends on the level at which you play.
The average 10 min farm for a diamond level Antimage this month is 63.98 lasthits and 3.60 denies.
The average 10 min farm for a bronze level Antimage this month is 38.57 lasthits and 1.06 denies.
Your cs in a real game is much more meaningful than against nothing or against bots. If you want to practice against bots just keep track of your personal scores and see how much you can improve. But it is never the same in a real game for the reasons I listed in an earlier post.
Antimage is the easiest hero to use for farming in a real game. Faceless Void also tries to start the game just farming...but his lasthit average scores are 32.77 Bronze and 46.36 Diamond.
Range heroes have even more difficulty. Diamond Sniper averages 40.55 while Bronze Sniper averages 27.27 lasthits at 10 min.
Dotabuff does not currently show your 10 min for every game. But I recommend just pulling up the replay of some carry game you played recently and taking a look at the first 10 min. That way you can see what number you got but also why you missed what you missed.
If you are missing because of harassment that has different solution than if you are missing because of not knowing how to lasthit under tower or just missing because of bad timing...or missing because you did not control the lane...or missing because you died.
105~ last hits on a lane vs lone druid + jungling (12 mins of farm); he managed to get some of their creeps killed behind their t1. Had 5 min~ midas for farm accelerating.
Close to 38 mins game.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/303042427
I think my last hits are probably below the bronze average HAHAHA >< i think i just have bad timing and i always click on the wrong creeps etc. just bad mechanical skills overall T.T what shld i do to improve?
For melee heroes, definitely get quelling blade. Some people like to pretend they don't need it...but if you can get just 8-10 more cs you have paid for it. Consider how many cs you actually miss in the first 10 min. For nearly all players on all heroes its far more than 10.
Another way to make lasthitting easier is to get phase boots. Remember treads is only a tiny bit more dps than phase until your get your first major damage item...and only if you remember to treads switch (if you don't phase is actually a tiny bit more dps early in the game).
Qblade dramatically increasing your jungling speed as a any melee carry hero. Farming 32% more creeps/minute in the jungle is a really big deal. Get Qblade even if your lasthitting is perfect if you expect to spend any time jungling. If your dmg is 75, then qblade (225 gold) is as much dmg as a Mithril Hammer (1600 gold). If your dmg is 144 it is as much dmg as a Demon Edge (2400 gold). The time to drop your qblade is basically not until you have 4 major items and you sell it to get the 5th...unless you get BoT next in which case its still better for farm rate to keep qblade until you have 6 slot.
I have to disagree relentless. If you are a melee hero and are expected to farm- start with a quelling blade ONLY if you randomed or pulled from supports. In normal, pub lanes the most important item for lasthitting is a stout shield. The reason behind it is simple= yeah, quelling blade allows you to get more cs, but people will see that you can be easily harrased and they will push you out of lane. With a stout shield csing is harder(and still possible) but you will suffer so much LESS dmg. I know some melee carries have very poor base dmg (naga, jug etc.), but personally i think that being able to SURVIVE in order to last hit from the start is pretty important. And you can always buy a quelling in the side shop. What is more, a quelling blade isnt an item that allows you to "learn" properly and some people are simply lazy and tend to take it for EVERY carry (void with a quelling on lane? with ~65-70 base dmg? you would really have to hate the creeps).
That is the prevailing attitude among many people who miss a ton of cs they could have obtained with qblade. The average lasthits for Diamond level Anti-mage at 10 min is 64. That means they missed 16. Everyone else is even worse.
If you are a real pro carry who gets 95% cs without qblade fine...but that's basically nobody.
If you are tanking tons of harass as a carry then your supports are crap and you can't farm the lane no matter what. In situations like this the jungle farm becomes paramount to catch up what you lost...and so get qblade to jungle 32% faster.
^what? You're giving advice to a player who said he's below bronze level and you suggest qblade to last hit which is fine and all. But you always have the attitude to disregard most players suggestions. Silvers suggestion is very valid especially for players inthe normal bracket. Spending 225 gold just to last hit better in lane can prove disastrous. It's fine if he gets it 2-3 mins ingame at side shop. It's usually bad in normal bracket to get qblade first item. This leaves you with about 375 gold for regen and stats. In a normal bracket game, don't expect supports to pool u with regen, expect t be in a dual lane against a dual lane. Expect to be harassed badly. If you're harass bad, qblade makes it not effective as an an item. I understand if its against a solo offlane then maybe in most cases qblade is better but @relentlrss, tellin him to go qblade as a melee carry all the time and blame supports if u get harass is bad advice. In most situations, it isn't the extra damage missing that causes players to miss out on last hit, it is the pressure of someone dealin damage to u everytime u last hit.
I don't disregard mistaken ideas. I correct them. Disregarding would be to ignore what was written.
No, I did not say "blame supports". It's simply a fact that if you are the carry and you are taking a lot of harass it IS because your support is bad...AND you stand there taking it for no reason. Or maybe you have some extremely stupid lane like Riki+PA dual lane. Even so...you still only take harass by standing in range to take it.
Now blaming them won't help but...if your support is bad stout shield does not fix that fact you can't farm. What will make up for your poor early farm is qblade. It will accelerate your farm dramatically any time you start jungling even if it is at 20 min into the game...also no one in High or Very High, or pro games pools regen to carries for them to farm against harass. That is a very wasteful use of regen. You give them regen after a gank to keep them in the lane. You prevent harass by controlling the lane.
If you can't farm from harass then you can't farm. Taking 20 less dmg per attack will not change it. Now, when you go up to lasthit in a dual lane you should not stand near the creep animation cancelling. That is how it is possible for the players with poor mouse skills to click on you to do a harassing attack. Instead you dance forward when you are going to get the lasthit (you have qblade so a deny is impossible) You hit the creep one time with no animation canceling and you go back. It will not be possible for a typical Normal level support to hit you more than once, usually they will fail to hit you even once. That is the reality of what happens in a Normal level game when you use correct lasthitting technique.
And if its really such a big deal...5 lasthits and you can afford your precious stout shield. Of course if you get it first instead of qblade first...then you can't lasthit because your dmg is too low. Any game you have a choice to walk out with stout shield or qblade on a melee carry, Qblade is always superior.
Stout Shield into PMS is for offlane heroes. It is not for carries. It is for someone who will take many right clicks and wants to be able to trade hits with a support if needed. It can also be ok for some jungle heroes...but really its for the jungle heroes that should be in a lane. The heroes that are best in the jungle do not need stout shield because they should never be tanking creeps.
^mm good explanation. Might start buyin qblade and see if I can orientate my gameplay towards what you said. I guess what I want to say about stout shield is that whenever I see someone in lane that requires farm without stout shield, it encourages me to harass even more.
Here is something else to consider. Lets compare Ring of Protection (175 gold). Stout Shield (250 gold) Poor Mans Shield (550 gold) and
0 or 1 set of tangoes
Now I just watched 4 replays of Normal level games and the most attacks any of the supports actually used on an enemy carry was 7 in the first ten minutes. One game they did 1 attack during the first ten minutes. But lets consider better aggressive supports than that.
Suppose Spectre chooses to spend his gold on these options. Spectre starts with 511 base hp and 3 base armor. If he takes harrasing attacks from a range hero who has 55 dmg how do these items compare?
If spectre can farm 2 cs/wave (lets be realistic for Normal farm) then he can afford Ring of Health by 6 minutes. How much harrass can he take during that time?
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Ring of Protection (175 gold)...optional 90 gold of tangoes
If Spectre takes 1 harrasing attack every creep wave, in the first 6 min with RoP that will hit him for 41 dmg 12 times for a total of 492 dmg...assuming he didn't skill any points in dispersion. Base hp regen regains 360 hp during that time and he gains 114 hp from leveling up to 4..so he will be at about 493 hp after 6 min of harrassment...this is not enough to push him off the lane even if he had no regen.
What if he takes 2 harrasing attacks every creep wave? Then he has to eat 1 set of 3 tangoes to stay in the lane and will end up taking 984 dmg, healing 360 from base regen, 114 from leveling, and 345 from tangoes ending at 346 hp. He might be feeling a bit low, but at this point he has his RoH and its no problem again.
---------------------------------------------
Stout Shield (250 gold) ...optional 90 gold of tangoes
If Spectre takes 1 harrasing attack every creep wave, in the first 6 min with SS that will hit him for 46 dmg 5 times and 26 dmg 7 times for a total of 412 dmg...assuming he didn't skill any points in dispersion. Base hp regen regains 360 hp during that time and he gains 114 hp from leveling up to 4..so he will be at about 573 hp after 6 min of harrassment...this is not enough to push him off the lane even if he had no regen.
What if he takes 2 harrasing attacks every creep wave? Then he has to eat 1 set of 3 tangoes to stay in the lane and will end up taking 824 dmg, healing 360 from base regen, 114 from leveling, and 345 from tangoes ending at 551 hp. He might be feeling a bit low, but at this point he has his RoH and its no problem again.
----------------------------------------------------------------
Poor Man's Shield (550 gold) ... no money for tangoes
If Spectre takes 1 harrasing attack every creep wave, in the first 6 min with PMS that will hit him for 26 dmg 12 times for a total of 312 dmg...assuming he didn't skill any points in dispersion. Base hp regen regains 360 hp during that time and he gains 114 hp from leveling up to 4..so he will be at about 625 (max hp) after 6 min of harrassment...this is not enough to push him off the lane even if he had no regen.
What if he takes 2 harrasing attacks every creep wave? Then he will end up taking 624 dmg, healing 360 from base regen, 114 from leveling, ending at 361 hp. He might be feeling a bit low, but at this point he has his RoH and its no problem again.
----------------------------------------------------------------
So realistically harassing down a melee carry hero requires at least 3 attacks per creep wave. And Normal level supports really can't do that if you lasthit correctly (ie don't stand in range of them animation cancelling). When you have quellling blade you can just walk up and take 1 attack to secure the last hit and retreat to safety. You can also see that it would be far more efficient to begin with RoP than SS since RoP builds into many of the items a carry would want anyway...while SS goes to PMS or Vangaurd, both bad for carries.
If you get Ring of Regen, after that Ring of Protection => could go to tranquil boots or Vlads, then your regen is about 90 hp/creep wave...you will heal faster than 2 attacks worth of dmg/wave. Anyway these are the things you need to think about when either trying to cs against harrass or trying to harass a carry. If you don't do at least 3 attacks every wave its not going anywhere. And if you can do 3 attacks/wave then Stout Shield wont save the carry. Fortunately for carry players...when you reach a level of play where the enemy support is capable of clicking on you 3 times every creep wave despite you moving around...your support should also be good enough to stop them from doing it.
If you are the carry think about it this way...natural regen lets you take 1 attack every creep wave. Each set of tangoes you got lets you take 1 more. If you got 2 sets of tangoes you can take 3 attacks/wave no problem. Just make sure you get the cs so that when your tangoes are gone you have an item. Getting qblade ensures that you have the item you need before the tangoes run out. Note that the blocked dmg from RoP, SS, or PMS could all have been replaced easily by their cost in tangoes...in fact the tangoes are better choice in all 3 cases....and they heal against spell harrasment which the other 3 don't block. But if you are building something with RoP in it anyway you may as well get it.
Ok... now lets assume the support is stacking and pulling(we do that on normal, we are not that bad). You will get hit by the creeps. They will deal a lot of dmg under tower. Yeah, eventually you will pull the enemy creep wave towards your next creeps, but still, you will get tons of dmg. And in the jungle the creeps will hurt you as well if you try meleeing them to death.
And i agree with flying pigs, if i see a melee witout a shield, it encourages me to hit them every now and then. And maybe i am a bad support, but im frustrated when i see a carry im on the lane with that buys a quelling and i have to give him regen after a few minutes, cause he got hit every time he wanted to cs. (well, that "maybe" was exaregated, i AM a bad dota player)
^Relentless <If you are a real pro carry who gets 95% cs without qblade fine...but that's basically nobody.>
You don't have to be pro to hit a perfect last-hitting result. On some absolutely free lane I can get 80/80 (no catapults included). Even though, that's not the way to farm on an abandoned lane. You gotta push the lane and get into jungle till the lane pulls back, out of enemy tower range.
It's not only about QB but about the tower hits as well. Last hitting under the tower is not that easy when the amount of damage the towers does can differ. I am generally really unlucky about it that I miss a lot of last hits.
^i recently find that the wait for three tower hit @ catapults kinda iffy. After 3 tower hits, the catapult still somehow has enough hp to withstand my 60dmg. maybe i subconsciously only waited for two instead of 3. Does anyone encounter this phenomenon? Ill have a look at my replay now.
LOL basically what relentless is saying is that stout shield sucks, should pick QB or Ring of protection over it. That's great advice. And if i got it right, uh as a melee carry am i supposed to walk up directly to a creep and last hit without animation cancelling then walk back? I'll go and try it in my next few games! :D
Only 2 questions.
You guys have talked a lot about melee heroes and getting quelling blade. What about ranged heroes? Any tips?
And what should i do to improve? ):
Btw, just wanted to say you guys are providing awesome feedback and its really nice of you guys to take out time to discuss this :D
Well, to be more precise he said that a stout shield sucks for a melee carry on a safe lane. For ranged... i think i can use Relentless' ideas- regen, stats and a ring of protection if required. Quelling and stout shield are pathetic on ranged heroes, so these options shouldnt be considered.
Silvers is right, qblade and stout are far weaker on range heroes. If you are a range hero it is best to pick up extra dmg for last hitting from a Ring of Basilius (start RoP), then build into aquila. That is the best choice for the vast majority of range agi heroes. If you are really struggling...get phase to make it easier as I mentioned before.
Van-art you appear to be very good at lasthitting.. still I doubt you have ever actually hit the first 80 lasthits in a real game. Many excellent players who do not critically evaluate their replays believe they must get the first 80 sometimes...but this is actually extremely rare. I have only seen 4 players do it to date : Loda, Burning, Black, Beesa. I have only seen each of them achieve this 1 time.
Recently a number of excellent farmers on dotabuff scoffed at my explanations of why they could not do it...they all went out intentionally to prove they could. And they all failed. You may get over 70/80 sometimes. But perfection is harder than people tend to imagine. It's also not that important. Usually it is not worth the focus required to get all the lasthits even for the tiny handful of experts who can do it...the price in missed opportunities for a hero kill or missing incoming ganks is too high.
Also you're point about what should be done with an abandoned lane is exactly right. Static farming it is usually the wrong move.
Relentless, I don't think you realise that a majority of new dota players and some who have played quite a lot of games will miss CS with no contention in the lane.
Plus some heroes (drow for example) need a few games played with just to be able to last hit vs creeps only.
Not only do I know that new players will miss a lot....I said everyone will. Qblade will reduce those misses dramatically for melee heroes. People should practice with Qblade because it is a good item choice and they should be getting it.
so does that mean that stout shield first item is a no go? Since if ure a melee carry, qbladee is the way to go and range carry, ring of protection? o.O
Stout shield is very good on offlane heroes who need to trade harass to stay near the lane. There are lot of heroes that can be played offlane and would do well with a Stout Shield...the agi ones upgrading to PMS and everyone else either selling or making Vanguard....Even some range heroes might want to get it offlane...but these are the heroes I think can use Stout Shield most effectively offlane (BH, Axe, Bristleback, Centaur, Clockwerk, Doom, Skeleton King, Slardar, Slark, Sven, Timbersaw, Treant, Troll, UD)
Undying with Stout Shield can be shockingly difficult to kill, even when he appears to have low hp. The same is true for BB, Sven, Timbersaw, and Treant. Large hp and armor early with block as well...attacking these heroes with low level supports is just going to tickle them.
You didnt mention the most amazing BM in that offlane pool. One doesnt simply forget about offlane BM!
I meant first item for a carry.
edit. In a pub game, not in a competitive game. pub game as in all for one, one for one.
Hi guys,
Thanks for the continuous influx of ideas in improving's one's farming. I think my reply is long overdue :D
Reply re free farm training:
[1] You face no opposition competing for the lasthit so the correct timing window is absurdly large.
--> There is only one timing window for last hitting and that is the final "X" hp of a creep where X HP <= you OR your enemy's damage.
The difference would be aside from you and creep's damage, you are adding a factor of enemy's damage. Such factor can only be trained in an 1) actual game 2) last hit practice w/ a friend 3) Unfair bots.
[2] You face no risk from harassment or ganks so your mind and your movements are improperly practicing habits that will get you killed in a real game...again making it possible to lasthit more than you really can get away with doing.
--> This is good reminder.
[3] You face no disruption of the pattern so you cannot correctly practice restoring equalibrium, countering the impact of the enemy heroes attempts to change it.
--> To a certian extent, you should still be able to apply equilibrium concept. Initially I didn't want to hit the creep unless it was a Last Hit or Deny. But since the damage output of Creeps vs Creeps is "almost" same, then I would once in a while hit an enemy creep once, then LAST HIT it so that I still have the window to DENY my own creep. Depending on the situation, this may happen multiple times which could lead to 6v4 creeps on the 2nd or 3rd wave - which would then turn into pushing the lane. If I do this too much, it will be harder for me to DENY because the creep wave will be closer to the enemy tower, thus, i.e. in the 3rd wave, I should do it the opposite way, must hit my own creep once, then DENY it to restore equilibrium. I just gave an example but these are all situational.
The missing factor here would be ENEMY HERO's damage -- but the concept should roughly be the same, just that the application my be different. i.e. Enemy used a skill to push out the creep wave, you might have to use a skill also to even it out.
[4] You face no large changes in the damage dealt. The real pattern of when to correctly attack is much different because your damage and enemy damage increases shift the window.
--> Agree.
[5] You face no large changes in attack speed so you cannot learn to adjust your timing correctly.
--> Agree. That's why I'm only talking about the first 10 minutes. I have a "write-up" I haven't posted yet which is another training where I can buy items, use skill, flash farm or push tower.
[6] You face no reason to change the creep equilibrium due to the game situation. In a real game you should hold, push, flash farm or pull the wave back depending on what is happening and this often changes from one wave to the next.
--> This training is not meant to include all the factors that a "real game" would. You could think more of this as a drill where you can get to know the attack animation of your hero, proper mindset and focus on damage output of all things in play that would affect your last hitting, and probably mechanics as well, provided that you shouldn't get lazy in your positioning and movement as what you've pointed in #2.
The only thing you practice when you play with no skills and no items against no one is the pure mechanics of lasthtting the first wave or two if you are on an abandoned defensive tri-lane That is just not worth doing. Instead you should practice against players trying to stop you in a real game or at least against "unfair" bots.
If its mouse clicking you are trying to improve...doing 1,150,000 clicks is not going to make you any better than 1,100,000 clicks. If you want to really change your ability to lasthit in a game you need to look at changing something substantial about how you play, something in decision making, objectives, or style...you cannot get significantly better at mouse clicking. Some people are very talented at it...most are not.
You will see a large improvement in your lasthitting on a particular hero if you have played 10+ games of that hero in the past week. But then once you are again familiar with the timing of that hero you won't get better. Because of this, at any given time players are out of practice lasthitting with nearly all the heroes.
--> The advantage of doing this drill is you could restart and do it over and over again at any point in time. Say you noticed that you keep on making the same mistake -- i.e. 2 enemy creeps with low HP and 1 ally creep with low HP. you could instantly repeat it and be critical and sensitive as to why it's happening. Should have I recognized it earlier that that will happen hence I should have quickly killed the other creep instead of just waiting for it? etc.. Real game situation may not give you enough focus to correct such a mistake since you will be thinking of a lot of other stuff.
My point in this training is to clean-up the basics of your mechanics and make "last hit mindset (damage output calculation, timing, equilibirum)" innate to yourself
Black Xargon, the fact is you have already attempted to click a mouse on a small target during a small window of time probably over 1 million times. You cannot really mechanically improve your ability to do it. 2 million tries won't do it or 3 or 10 million.
Many other things in your life, in plenty of sports or job situations...many other things can be mechanically improved with practice. But those actions have been practiced only a few hundred to a few thousand times. Clicking a mouse is really already as good as it will get. If you have world class talent for mouse control...great! If you are below average, well that's how it's going to stay.
If your equipment is bad (ie bad lag, some unresponsive roller mouse) that could make a difference. But practice clicking will not.
What you can practice is recognizing the patterns that occur in real game situations and understanding how to change them. What you can practice is seeing the game situation and adjusting to push or pull the lane. What you can practice is recent familiarity with a particular heroes attack animation.
You need to connect real in-game situations in your mind and muscle memory to the action of lasthitting for it to be productive. It is harder to see errors in-game, but that is not artificial. It really IS that hard. Making it artificially easy by removing the complexity doesn't make you able to do the hard version. Since it is hard to see errors in-game -- you should watch replays to see and understand them. This is a much more effective way to fix the wrong decisions and positioning...to see what you really did and the effect it really had. That is true not only for laning, but every other aspect of the game. Watch your replays.
But if you enjoy lasthitting practice against bots, don't let me stop you. It's sort of like a mini-game. I know a lot of people do enjoy doing it. I just don't want people to think that they need to force themselves to do this in hopes of improving. Lots of people pay money trying to copy the exercise regimes of naturally athletic beautiful, strong people hoping to look like them. It will never work. My brother and I who got a perfect score on a standardized test with no practice or preparation were hired to teach a teach a very expensive class on a preparatory system for the standardized test along with a handful of other people who also got perfect scores without trying. Rich kids parents wanted them to all get genius scores too...but that did not work because the method was just for show. People who were geniuses got perfect scores and had no prep. In the same way, some people are vastly better at lasthitting than most people can ever be. They don't practice more, its just easy for them. So I think it is better to focus on improving the things that do not depend so heavily on natural talent.
my record was 70 cs at 10 minutes against a double lane, didn't use the jungle at all and i dont know why people use the jungle either to compensate for missing cs
^
you cant even lasthit when your life depends on it. Get carried n00b.
am I allowed to post links here?
If i'm not, ill just delete/edit em. Or anyone in charge can just remove em.
Look what I came across today from one of purgegamers instructional vids haha.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOJAvlF0OOY
He somehow recommends that stout shield on a safe carry is much better than a quelling blade. I know he might not be a professional gamer by any means but surely he is somewhere up there?
Just a quick question. Is solo mid position easier to play or carry role?
I wanted to post that link as well, but the topic went back to the original form, so i opted not to do that after all... The link speaks for itself i guess.
Obviously a stout shield is much better than a qb as a starting item if you're a melee carry in the safelane. Just think about that one...
@way2high Well, judging by your rather simple statement you havent read the whole thread, have you?
Sorry I just read the last couple of posts. Was there something important that was said?
Purge says a lot of things...some of it is not ideal...even based on the assumption of bad play. For instance, in this video Purge says buy stout shield on a melee safelane carry because you will be tanking creeps because of the pull and "lose a serious amount of hp very fast"....yeah, if you are very bad and let them hit you...If Purge actually doesn't know how to take creep aggro off the tower without them hitting him um...well maybe he just assumes bad/new players can't do it? idk.
Purge reason to not get qblade first (though he does say to get it) is "he doesn't generally recommend it". Basically he has not thought about it and picks the recommend default build as his own because he just doesn't think about it. In summary of my earlier remarks...get qblade first so you have the dmg to lasthit immediately and can afford to buy whatever you need....if you get stout first you will miss the early, most difficult lasthits and can't afford any of the various options to stay in the lane. The reasoning Purge presents for starting items is almost nothing...and poorly considered.
Besides the details...his approach to how to choose starting item is basically wrong. The purpose of starting items is to get you to the point where you can begin picking up core items. Every starting item should be decided based on "What does this do to get me to my first and most important core item?" Purge starting item reasoning is based on "How do I not feed too much?"...which is somewhat understandable if you are speaking to total nubs whose main objective in a dota game is to not feed....but for people who are beyond Bronze level that is the wrong way to think about the game. Anyway that is why he says things in this video like "its always best to play it safe". No, in dota it is usually wrong to "play it safe". Playing it safe in every situation is a sure way to get a winrate below 50%.
you buy a stout shield to last hit under tower when your support is pulling, tell me how enter the matrix to avoid damage. maybe if you played actual very high games, you might have known this
you buy qblade if they have a furion or if you random a carry, if you insist qb > stout then it shows how bad you are at this game (which you are) and if you need qb to last hit better then my god you are bad
great kämey teaching scrubs since day 1 please advise shitters to my lectures, i'll give you C- on your essay relentless, get your facts straight next time for once
unfortunately everything you said is wrong
first of all with more than 90% of the melee heroes last hitting under the tower is easier without a quelling blade
you can always drop it but most people don't do that and you might ask yourself why you got it that early in the first place
you also don't pull the creepwave away from your tower and you should usually tank the creeps
if your supports are pulling and you pull the creeps that are arriving at your tower between tier 1 and tier 2 tower then you will have the next wave inside your tower as well , as both creep waves will naturally meet very close outside your tier 1 tower range (unless you want to actually push out that lane for some reason)
you also usually don't know what your lane is going to be
with a stout you can solo almost anything without taking too much damage and being reliant on excessive babysitting or supplies from your supports
id actually rather leave the well with 220 gold and buy a quelling blade at the side shop if my lane ends up being free and you shouldn't be actually missing more than 1 or 2 cs while farming a quelling blade (5 creeps)
if someone's actually in your lane contesting you and your support has bought all the supplies or maybe pooled your mid/offlane and you dont have a stout you can fuck up an easy lane very easily so that he either cant pull or that you actually dont have enough regen to zone the off lane out sufficiently or cripple your own farm
getting a ring of protection instead of a stout might be a good idea when you want to rush tranquils or an early basi
^damn you articulate what I wanted to say so accurately.
I have no idea what is going on. QB before stout? qUESTION MARK? huh.
Ok anyways, I was confused so I decided to read a chunk of this thread.
@Relentless You talked about getting last hits at 10 mins and you showed some averages for the different skill levels. This is where your brain fumbled a bit and you're not thinking. You're telling me, in an average game, the "first" 10 mins Diamond level, AM averages 62.82 last hits?? Are you nuts? That means the AVERAGE Diamond level only misses 18 last hits in the first 10 mins which is clearly wrong.
The way Dotabuff calculated this number was to take the total number of last hits, divided it by whatever and getting the AVERAGE last hits per 10 mins. They did not calculate the "first" 10 mins, they calculated the average per 10 mins.
That's all I wanted to reply to.
That would be totally wrong. Why do you believe it is coded like this? Is it just because you don't think the numbers are what you expected or do you have access to the code somehow?
Anyway, I don't believe this sort of mistake was made in their code. I don't believe it because
[1] the numbers of lasthits do make sense
[2] Dotabuff Plus has about 8,000 example games where the details are shown and correct.
It appears in the example games that the number of lasthits and denies is reported directly for every game at 10 min and at 20 min.
Why would they do it wrong for the main averages?
*Shakes head*
They have NO WAY of knowing the last hit every second of every minute. It does not say anything about the first 10 minutes, it just says 10 minutes. Here's a big hint on why its per 10 minutes and not the first 10 minutes -> I'm just going to go look at CM's average farm in "Diamond". It says "10.7" for 10 minutes. Do you in your right mind think that a CM would average 10.7 last hits for the first 10 mins? Or let's look at wisp, he's at "8.41" which is the lowest in Diamond. How the hell does a wisp average 8.41 last hits in the first 10 mins?
Now... I'll let you think about it.
Oh and I forgot one more thing...
When it says Last Hits / 10 Minutes, that is usually an indication of "per" 10 minutes and as an average of 10 mins.
I see...so you are not basing this on some special knowledge. You are just presuming that they must have made a mistake because reality does not match your expectations.
Your incredulity is based on nothing. I play a ton of CM at Diamond level and I often have 10 last hits at 10 minutes. You have no idea what you are talking about. I might end the game with 20 lasthits...but 10 at 10 min is normal because I took them from the pulls.
In fact if the error you describe was really made, CM lasthits "per" 10 min would be more like 2 or 3. That fact that it is at 10.7 virtually proves you are wrong and the dotabuff stats are accurate.
You're undeniably wrong yet you continue to argue? If her average last hit per 10 mins is 2 or 3, that means by 60 mins she'll only have like 12 or 18 last hits? Lmao okay...
I thought that wasnt even the point. Why not argue why stout is so much better than qblade? :D cause i for one just usually get stout as a melee carry rather than a quelling blade. In my experience of dota gaming, I usually do worse with quelling blade as first item. Might be because i'm not good enough so I'm keen on more skilled players' opinions.
I supposed CM might be forced to take more cs late game to stop pushes, but there is no reason to believe dotabuff averaged the total cs/gametime to get those numbers.
http://dotabuff.com/heroes/anti-mage/performances Just take a look at the details. You can see the cs at 10 min and 20 min are directly reported. You say "They have NO WAY of knowing the last hit every second of every minute." as if that would logically preclude having 10 min data. I think they actually can get the last hit data from every second of every minute from the replay parser. But there is no need for that. You just need the 10 min mark to get this data.
@flyingpigs It looks like you very rarely play safelane melee carries.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/290826548
http://dotabuff.com/matches/287894285
http://dotabuff.com/matches/267265196
http://dotabuff.com/matches/265220252
It looks like 3 (maybe 4?) in the last month of games (last 100 games)...you have a stout shield build for all the 3 games you lost badly and did not get it the game you won. Its not much data. I was hoping maybe you had a game recent enough to look at the replay so I could show you how little the shield blocked and how you missed the early lasthits leading to slow farm...but they are all over a week old already. Next time you do play a melee safe-lane carry try the qblade I think you have not attempted this in a very long time. You may be pleasantly surprised at what you can do with it.
haha yes. Recently I've just been sticking to heroes that I find fun to play with. Ill give a qblade a try whenever an opportunity does come up.
Meanwhile...pancakes is saying "with more than 90% of the melee heroes last hitting under the tower is easier without a quelling blade"
and "you also don't pull the creepwave away from your tower"...."you should usually tank the creeps". No one wonder new players can never figure out the game.
I guess maybe he is really doing this and Purge also? Kami the smurf stacker thinks you have to "enter the matrix" to not tank creeps. I thought this was really basic stuff you learn very early...actually I think even the tutorial explains not to tank the creep wave. Most likely these guys are just trolling...but please, do not tank the creep wave to control its position or to lasthit or get to them off the tower.
It's not very hard. All you have to do it get close enough to draw aggro and then move to where you want them to go. You can turn and lasthit the creeps as you are walking...you can even control which one the tower attacks next if you are good at it. I feel silly explaining this...but maybe Purge and these other experienced dota players really lasthit under tower by standing still, animation cancelling like they have Parkinsens and tanking as Purge says they will "lose a serious amount of hp very fast".
next time you call someone a smurf, you might wanna google what it means buddy, you've said some stupid shit before but this probably takes the cake
but i guess anyone who has played less than 1000 matches is automatically a "smurf", flawless logic mr "qb > stout"