General DiscussionHero win rates

Kinda @ topic
Someone can post brood winratios in each bracket ty in advance

@Mark

You need DB+

@iWin4Arka

She is lowest in all brackets but Diamond where she is second last with 40,33 winrate

What are some others I mentioned like AM, invoker and puck? They seem like good heroes in higher brackets, wondering why overall they do so poor.

Some heroes are very powerful, but also very hard to use. Some heroes are very good if there is excellent coordination with the team...but not strong on their own.

Brood, Meepo, and Invoker have very high skill caps ...so high that typical Diamond players who enjoy playing them can't play them skillfully enough to win games.

Some heroes...while very good...are far more popular than they deserve. Antimage, Invoker, and Windrunner are a good examples of that. Because they are so popular lots of people play them who are not that good at the hero. This gives them a lot of extra losses. These heroes are really very hard to play effectively and so tons of people do it wrong. Its easy to get what looks like a decent KDA on these heroes....so many players feel they are pretty good at them. But in reality you have to accomplish more with these heroes to actually win the game than other heroes.

Puck is very hard to kill so he often gets what might look like a good score...but to win with puck you really need to hit teamfight winning combos and its quite difficult and high risk.

Its fairly easy to get high gpm and low deaths on WR...but to win what you really need are clutch shackles in teamfights and that's a lot harder.

Its fairly easy to get a lot of farm on anti-mage...but to win what you really need to excellent late game decision making and lots of AM's only know how to farm. People tend to think of AM as powerful because he often has lots of farm....but really, with equal farm nearly all other carries are more powerful than AM. AM is good at farming and running away....he is really quite bad at dealing team killing dmg. The only way he can do it is with the help of some super huge combo like a DS+Mag or DS+ Enigma. The radius on battlefury is only 225...thats pretty much always single target dmg. So when it really counts (teamfights) multi target carries do 2x, 3x, sometimes 5x the dps that AM can with equal farm.

@Relentless - I have to say, I enjoy reading your insights. I've learned a lot surfing these forums the last couple of days.

OT: When theres so much data from such a large variety of players (skill-wise and culture-wise), its really hard to get anything meaningful from looking at just one stat (ie win rate). Even filtering by bracket would still not always yield very meaningful data. There are a lot of games (ie new players, stacked teams, disconnects, etc) which curve the average and skew the data. To get consistently meaningful data you would need to filter out such games (which DB doesn't currently do), as well as some data mining tricks/algorithms.

Sometimes you just need to know what people are doing to understand what the data means. For instance, wisp used to have an extremely high winrate in (60%+) Diamond because there were half a dozen strong stacks that played wisp+ursa for hundreds of games. Most of those people have stopped doing it, mostly because they got bored....not that wisp is any weaker. And so wisp dropped to 50% win in Diamond.

In general what a hero having a very high pub winrate means is that the top stacks are playing it. This does mean that the hero has some strength in the "pub metagame"...but its exaggerated.

Good point. Thinking along the same lines, that wisp+ursa trend most likely lowered the win rates of many other heroes (those with no escape, low survivability, etc) that would otherwise have had average or even above average win rates.

It goes to show that you can't just look at the numbers and expect to understand anything meaningful. You need more metadata (ie knowing the trends of the top stacks, recent dota2 updates, etc) to make sense of it.

Good analysis of strengths and weaknesses.

One reason why AM is so low is cuz of pubs. Every build is battlefury into manta. So most pubs will just get pubstomp around 30 if they don't have some decent farm & hero kills. We are all to familiar with those 4v5 games with battlefury AM with regular boots in fountain. He has 0 HP to really gank when base is being smashed.

As for brood, dota 1 OP builds don't work here on dota 2. Such as the basher brood and BKB brood. A decent player can get tier 2 towers down fast in under 20 mintues but sometimes that doesn't correlate to taking other towers or enemy base. I think Aui_2000 even says manta is mandatory for a brood nowadays. Almost all other builds are inferior such as MoM or daedalus builds.

Clinks well every since NAVI rushed orchid like in under 10-15 mintues. Problem is most noobs think it's cool to finish treads before orchid or sometimes they rush it and usually it's finished around the 25-30 mintue mark. Which is already mid-late game and clinkz isn't gonna have an easy time ganking many STR item heroes who are already farmed etc. Most decent players will already get wards & dust at the minute clinkz finishes orchid. Leaving it to be used as 5v5 fights. If clinkz goes agianst a nuke heavy lineup such as lion, zues, lina etc.. Orchid would never be used early and almost always used defensively. I would rather go phase boots, crystlays build as you can easily get daedalus in under 30 mintues.

Invoker, We all too common see them sit mid with 0 effecitivness. 0 ganks, you're lucky if they can sun strike. Not sure why people don't rush daeadalus on extort builds. I've seen it work easily mid. But some of them do some sort of quas wex build or soemthing. Mid-late game all mid pub invoker got is force staff, phase and euls. Like seriously wtf, why get utility items when you already have tornado and ghost walk?

Skywrath well he is very very strong early to mid game. But once every hero does over 100+ damage. His nuke is almost useless when everybody has 1000+ HP. Skywarth is like silencer, you have to keep the pressure up on enemies. And also gank like NS. He really has no late game like lich and falls of once the carries can 3-5 hit him.

Tinker, well unless you are in low tier, Laser rockets is not even a reialbe build now. Basically rush march and BoT. And copy NP spamming lanes. He's not even useful til he gets guinsoo & dagon so that's it about him.

As for morphling, well he's been nerf. Most players play a farm heavy or KSing type build. Who can't 1v1 any carry hero. I mean a 1000 HP morphling morphing stats will just lose to a decent life stealing/crit hero.

Lastly Shadow shaman is by far the most effective 2v2, 3v3 hero there is. The only problem is noobs dont' know how to work together to fully use his spells. Ult 1 hero in trap, hex another, then shackle one right away during a 3v3 lineup. And you basially win. Almost as effective as bane's sleeping one, ulting other while his other 2 allies pound on the eneimes.

Shadow Shaman actually has a decent winrate of almost 50%. He's talking about Shadow Demon (41%), AKA the guy who always saves the enemy by banishing him with the worst possible timing, lands the damage amplification spell on a ranged creep and Ks' with his ulti or poison skill.

He's one hero who has extremely deadly but hard to land or time spells, which results in the above. Pro players (I'm sadly not one) know exactly how to aim and when to use his spells for maximum effectiveness. I'm sure his winrate goes up the higher the bracket.