I know it works, ive played her atleast 300 times and now she feels so much weaker then she used to be. I mean I have been playing dota 1 while I had dota 2 already. Solely to play nagasiren.
I know her annoyance and her strengths up to perfectly.
"Still works, just not as good as before." But sometimes not good as before is just not sufficient to be a reliable carry which she used to be.
IMO she needs a slight buff.
I disagree. putting her on carry role is optional and fully depends on enemy lineup. yours as well. saying she is the worst agi carry in game is straight out stupid.
disagree about buff part as well, she already can function well as both support and a carry. not many others enjoy same diversity.
if anything we don't need anymore buffs in dota. ape shit buffs patch after patch, but that's whole different story.
I like her better played as a support. That net is really awesome in a tri lane or for ganks. The ult can be used to setup big team fights. With her debuff you can have her get other team aura items and make her a buff bot.
@xan and thats whats exacty what i meant, her being optional.
I am a ind of guy that plays mostly the heroes the heroes he adores, Naga being one of them. But Naga being this nerfed... Only being 'good' against certain heroes. I could pick the old brood, soloq and still have 65% winratio and get away with mostly everything but now when i would pick nagasiren and i would like to play her as carry i would get sth around 50% in comparison to almost 100% WR(100+ games) which i had in dota 1
Trust me, I didnt say 100% I said almost 100%. Trust me I really had this much, me + IRL friend. Eitherway you dont have to believe me if you dont want to, I know my stuff.
Luckily atleast that they brung old CD on Riptide back so I can atleast go solomid with her
the support naga is quite a new thing. she has always been a carry. even now.
i believe someday dusa will be a support too. given the trend.
@whoji sorry, but the only AoE ranged (insane and overpowered) right-clicker is never going to be a support.
@OA*_Havoc Badger aww yes, i just love that Chinese(?) build http://dotabuff.com/matches/254957118 http://dotabuff.com/matches/251165628
Ok, Naga used to be a great late game carry because:
1) She had more base damage
2) There were not many other options, tbh
3) TI2 dota was based on heroes that can execute OP combos (e.g. naga-ds-tide/enigma)
I hope to see her and CK as a carry soon again, because dota is getting more aggresive and fast, so the mid-game carries can do their job.
During TI2 people didnt even play her like a hard carry, chinese team would build her with linkens just to ensure the ulti with a big team fight to support it.
@jes D.
People already started playing medusa as support. not cm vs lich kinda of support. but enigma tide kind of ult support.
icefrog keeps doing buff on her ult. someday players will get refresher orb on her.
who imagined naga will oneday be a support when in 2009 when her wave skill was the passive critical hits.
My guess: whoji just hopes that dusa will be a support hero only so that zsmj could play it once again in comp doto xD
well i prefer heroes being 'optional'. it allows for more diversity and strategic depth which ultimately leads to more interesting dota games. like alchi functioning as a support etc etc.
whereas someone picks lancer and you already know what kind of crap you are into for next 40 minutes.
you only enjoy playing pesky heroes or what?
no but on srs note, don't like radiance on slithece.
I love pesky heroes :D Like my Top heroes carrywise are actually Naga, Brood and Lone which are all really annoying to deal with.
Radiance is one of the strongest Naga items. Once obtained you get 1k GPM and just skyrocket farmwise but you have of course other options.
Radiance is the best item for image heroes. Of course if you don't micro the illusions to make full use of it, split farm and split push it will not seem that impressive. But if you know how to use it correctly its amazing... even NP struggles to push against well microed radiance naga.
Yeah the illusions get the aura but it doesn't stack, so you need to split the illusions up. Big reason PL gets radiance often too.
@EmptyJar
haven't thought about that way. but that match in 2010 was so damn epic lol
ck is image hero, and radiance on ck is downright bad. so your generalization is straight out wrong.
I'll always prefer feedback on illusions rather than radiance so I wouldn't even agree it's the best item for image heroes.
certainly is good, but you just get it to boost farm.
I might get radiance on naga vs heroes with blinks. like es/enigma/tide to basically screw with their initiation, otherwise it would never enter my 6 slots.
to each his own.
ck is not an image hero. His ult is not spammable and he can't farm with it. I'm not even reading further since you first base statement is invalid.
so just because his images don't serve the same purpose it somehow makes him not an image hero?
yeah, don't bother reading if you can't differentiate between the two.
hmm, I didn't really consider CK to be an image hero because the cd is so long. You can't use them to split push and scout.
Diffusal is the 2nd best item for image heroes. CK does not function like Naga or Pl at all. Reality Rift brings everything to one point to hit a single target. Its more like his images are purely for extra burst dmg. CK is really based on his stun and blink and the ult is just an amplification of those skills.
Xan if you don't get radiance on Naga and PL it's like not getting the ult on most heroes. Their power primarily comes from their ability to split push.
When amping up images you want Radiance first because it is your farming tool and your counter pushing tool. Radiance gives you the time to acquire everything else by making it nearly impossible for the enemy team to push into your base without killing you first.
Diffusal is your teamfight tool. If you send an image or two with diffusal at each support hero they are out of the fight. They will be forced to spend their disable on the illusions or lose so much mana and hp that they are worthless. So many people just select all images and right click them on the enemy carry in the middle of the fight. That does almost nothing. Aoe will quickly wipe out the images. The difference when you micro them to attack several targets is huge... but of course it requires more skill.
The next choice is always the same, butterfly or heart? If the enemy team has mostly magic dmg get heart. If they have mostly physical dmg get butterfly. Once you have both images cannot be killed quickly even late game unless they spend ults to do it. And if you are PL you have more images a few seconds later... that is really why PL is so strong. The cd on image generation is so small he can make new ones at least 6 times every creepwave... often even faster.
Manta is nice for removing aoe silences, but its mainly good for the move speed and attack speed bonus to the images from yasha. Sometimes getting yasha first is a cheap alternative to a radiance rush for speeding up your farm, but its really always 2nd best. Pro's often get this because a pro team will not sit by and watch you farm long enough to get the radiance.
well with all due respect (and I really mean it), didn't ask for a guide on 'how to'. I'm well past that and know it all too well.
you are assuming that you have to play lancer/naga as only pusher/farmer role. so you base all that text on a way you are playing it and perceive to be the best. again it should and has to be O P T I O N A L.
notice I never said radiance is a bad choice on either pl or naga. it can be very good. what I argued about is that instead playing cookie cutter you should always look at the most optimal build.
like I said, if I feel I could use radiance well (as in vs dagger initiator heroes) I would make it. otherwise I prefer fight oriented build.
let's put it this way. you farm radiance, you now have to get hot, 15 mins of farming more, 35 minutes your team without you.
I get drums/diffu, actually have fighting potential, can contest fights and help out my team which is much better option mid game.
again a good player should adopt to any situation, rather than copy/paste builds game after game.
one more thing, me disliking radiance has nothing to do with micro management issues on naga or pl, because it couldn't be further away from the truth, nor they are hard to micro in any way shape or form.
last but not least, ck will always be an image hero, regardless of what you may think or consider the 'term' that should apply when discussing image heroes. tis not an opinion, tis a fact. ck with manta (which ain't all that too uncommon), will put other image heroes to shame. but yes, you play it differently and I just made an example in order to nitpick about your 'image' heroes generalizations. don't go off the tangent writing guide again, I'm not gonna bother read it for the 2nd time. cheers.
Yes, if your team can't secure enough early farm you can for yasha into diffusal instead. But if you can get the radiance first build it really is a better option. You should get radiance before 20 min if you do it that way... 15 min is possible with free farm. When you do this correctly and have radiance by 15 min its easy to add diffusal by 20 min and so on... This "35 min your team without you" idea is a myth. That only happens if you farm badly.
Also remember PL does not need to stop farming to help the team. Just farm in the same region of the map where the team is and send images to them. You can make new images 6 times every 30 seconds at minimum. Keep images scouting to flank the team, keep images pushing with the team... you can be farming the jungle the whole time but the enemy will think you are with the team and you may as well be. Nearly all your dps is from images replicating anyway. The real PL does not need to ever be there, just generally in the same area. Also when you micro images well they are often ganked. This takes a lot of pressure off your team because you can get 2 or 3 heroes... sometimes whole teams to chase images around the map trying to find you. I feel disappointed if I do not succeed in getting people to cast ults and dust multiple times on PL images throughout the game. All you have to do is pick one that is visible in the lane every 10 or 15 seconds and move it like it's your real hero. People will be deceived.
This especially effective with a lance-dopplewalk combo. Whenever you are in a lane and about to leave, cast lance on a creep and dopplewalk at the same time and leave the lane. Then micro the dopplewalk illusion as if you stayed, use it lasthit, move it off in another direction. Someone watching the lane will always think this is your real hero. But by the time they attack you will have already left. I'm often 2 full screens away after doing that...farming some jungle camp when someone blink ults the PL group, dusts it...a BH pops out and track the image I was microing. Its very funny.
you again go into 'guide' mode. I'm not reading it.
I disagree with your first part, that's it.
Well Xan you need to realize thousands of people read what I write not just you. I can't only write for you personally. You can pretend you didn't read it if you like. It won't hurt my feelings. There are many who would like to know exactly how to play PL, even if you do not.
lol, radiance hasn't been a core item on PL for a long time now.
give us a guide on how to feed every game, you've mastered that already
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It is just sad to play that hero as carry nowadays when you know other carrys have way more strengths than she does atm.
-Her basedamage is poor compared to heroes such as naix and pl(~18 more!!).
-You cannot be left alone against an enemy offlaner since they have (way) more damage then you and common offlaners such as Clock can even annoy the fuck out of her and even score kills. (Naix, Razer, Viper, Potm, Alch can stay in lane and even score kills with their abilities)
-She needs a little more space to get online
-She NEEDS the levels, She needs high level of net to score solokills, You need high level of illusions so they even matter, You need Riptide since its the only secure damage source and your lanecontroll ability. Ulti is selfexplanatory.
Once she gets the room however she is a complete beast just like other carrys but what makes her the carry she is ?
Flashfarm(Once she gets an item up) - Check!!
BKB-Piercing ability - Check
Negative Armor - Check
Get out of Jail card - Check
DPS ?! - Her Only increased Dps source is either the negative armor or her Illusions
Her illusions take 300% the damage and a lategame naga might get close to 3k hp so basically its just 1k effective HP on her illusions, namely a Lina is almost enough to stop a push from nagasiren.
If we would compare her to AM, He struggles a lot early however can solo against most melee heroes and midgame he starts farming super fast just like Naga does. So thats what they have alike... but lategame AM has the ability to initiate instantly on the most important hero and killing him, Naga has long cast time + needs to walk up. Of course she has other strengths and such but ya know :D
I could write alllllllll day long about her and how much I miss her as carry and how other carrys are just more viable.
If they atleast gave her some damage back, fixed the IMBA ensnare bug and somehow nerfed her supporting abilities I would have some hope.
Does anyone feel the same ? Anyone wants to discuss ?