In the patch notes it says
--> Evasion now stacks diminishingly
So if i have 2 bflies how much is the evasion?
It works that way. You have 2 butterflies. If someone hits you, then first butterfly tries to evade the hit. If it doesn't then second one tries the same. So it's a chance of %35 + %35 of 65, don't what exactly it is.
But in most pro games enemy carry will even stop farming the item he was and will start getting a Butterfly instead. So it's not really a good idea.
Okay I used a calculator and it's a %57.75 chance evasion but since this is PRD based it's about %50 in reality.
![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
Lots of carrys already like to build a MKB against PA, so building a Butterfly seems kind of redundant.
Evasion is not PRD. defensive passives are not PRD based besides shield block. but the thing is, after you build butterfly enemy carry will most likely build MKB if it fits them but even if it is not traditional core item for them.you will still have time to the point where they finish it, but true strike is not aura and you take damage not only from carries.
with PA or brewmaster, enemy knows that you will have evasion late-game so there won't be effect of surprise. and as evasion does not stack directly the second one gives somewhat good bonus EHP but it's not worth it defensively. and there are many items which give more DPS and extra effects than butterfly. and there are other defensive items as well.
It's like stacking crits. chance to crit increases, but it's still not worth it as having many items having same effect, even if they somehow stack, is lame.
why pro carry players dont stack burizas? for the same reason. it doesn't stack additively...
PA with lvl 4 blur with 1 butterfly has a 61% chance of evasion. WITH 2BFLIES has a 74,65% chance of evasion!!
The stack is good, and on PA it is amazing, it gives PA +60 dmg so is a good item, tonnes of agi and attack speed, and evasion. Problem is if you are PA someone on the other team will be building MKB anyway, so stacking butterfly is going to be bad in a pro game. In pubs however people are stupid and I have stacked this several times on PA. You can just walk around in the fountain as you are pretty much indestructible.
Easily countered though. If you get countered you have wasted 10k gold.
Here's a question, would a 2nd butterfly or a heart be more beneficial in terms of EHP, considering the enemies dont have an MKB?
@vexire
Heart gives +40 strength +300hp --->Gives a total of 1060 hit points.
with 2 bflies--->57.75% chance evasion--->You evade more than half the physical attacks so it is like your hp is doubled. Depdends on your hp though and also you cant evade magic damage.
The 2nd bfly gives an additional 22.75% chance of evasion so in terms of tanking HoT>bfly but for an agi hero a HoT gives no damage.
Imo i prefer an AM with 2bflies than 1 bfly and 1 HoT if enemies dont have mkb.
reason why pros won't stack butterflys is because one, it costs too much and 2 getting a heavens hali would be more beneficial if they were to stack evasion. and whoever said 2 bf on am is an idiot, anyone with eth blade n a nuke will kill an am with that build
It's a diminishing stack, so it works the same as stout shields. Let's say you have a 50% chance to evade, then you buy an item that gives you another 50% chance to evade.
Your evasion is not going to be 50% + 50% = 100%,
it will be 50% + 50% x 50% = 75%.
This is because you will go through the first evasion before your second evasion, so if you already have 50% evasion, everything else is only going to be effective the other 50% of the time, cutting it's evasion chance in half.
In the case of Butterflies, it's 35% evasion chance.
Because it's diminishing stack, it will not be 35% (Butterfly) + 35% (another Butterfly) = 70%
It will be 35% + 35% x 65% (because the second Butterfly will only be effective 65% of the time)
Actual numbers: 0.35 + 0.35 x 0.65 = 0.5775
Two Butterflies together will give you a 57.75% chance to evade, meaning you are getting an entire 12.25% less evasion from your second Butterfly.
If you want a THIRD Butterfly, it will barely be effective for evasion.
57.75% + 35% x 42.25%
0.5775 + 0.35 x 0.4225 = 0.725375
Three Butterflies will get you approximately 72.54% evasion chance, just about 15% more evasion than only two Butterflies, not even half as much as the item gives you without stacking.
Overall, it is best that you do not try to stack evasion.
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For those who believe that Butterfly is the ultimate damage/tankiness item and you need to get 6 of them to be the ultimate carry, look at these items.
Damage items suitable for carries: MKB, Abyssal Blade, Daedalus, Radiance, Battlefury, Manta Style, Assault Cuirass, Mjolnir, Mask of Madness, Diffusal Blade, Desolator, Eye of Skadi, Sange and Yasha, Heaven's Halberd, Divine Rapier
Tanky items for carries: BKB, Heart of Terasque, Satanic, Assault Cuirass, Heaven's Halberd
You can be six slotted in other damage items, or 5 slotted in other tanky items, leaving room for boots. So no, Butterfly is not good to stack, because you can get WAY better items instead.
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TL;DR Version:
Don't stack Butterfly.
1. Not every/carry can use MKB effectively, and even if they do, the 3-4 enemies (granted their DPS may not be significant) that don't get MKB are going to be doing a lot less damage to you.
2. Even if an enemy does get MKB, don't pretend for a second that Butterfly is suddenly a worthless item. 60AS/DMG is a heaps. For example, a Luna at level 16 with phase boots and max aura has 152 DPS (assuming he hits for the highest damage), not including glaives or anything else here. Butterfly takes his DPS to 287, by comparison, a pure DPS item like Buriza goes to 314. However her physical EHP goes from 1487 to 2662..I'm not advocating this build or anything, just throwing some numbers to think about.
3. You listed a lot of items, but how many would you actually buy over butterfly? Of course items like BKB and Abyssal are fairly universal, but half of those other items are just shit in comparison to butterfly. HH, Radiance, Manta (late game), AC, Mjol, MoM, Diffusal, Deso, EoS, SNY are all pretty shit on but a few carries. Way better items like what? You just listed items, made some random comment and then said tl;dr don't stack butterfly without actually saying anything? Roses are red, violets are blue, tl;dr don't vote for obama.
You only take evasion into consideration as well, and numbers can be misleading as hell. Rapier is a shit item because it gives a hero with 9999999 damage a negligible amount of bonus damage, right!? HoT on a hero with ~1000 HP adds 100% more HP, but a second one only adds 50%!
Butterfly still adds 60AS/DMG, which is quite a significant amount of damage, other than your basic BKB/Abyssal/Boots/Buriza, adding two butterflies can be extremely effective unless there are other items that you require. I'm not advocating that people stack Butterfly, but its not something that you can write off so easily, I think the maximum you could reasonably buy in a game without hindering your build is two, but in most cases you will have other items which you need to buy (maybe a HoT/MKB/Hex) which would only allow you to buy 1.
Try to ensure you look at all aspects of something before you try and evaluate something.
@Terrible
I'm not talking about NEVER buying Butterfly because these items are better, I'm saying don't buy TWO Butterflies because the effectiveness of the evasion (which is the topic of this thread) is seriously hindered for each stack. And items like EoS, AC, Mjolnir, Diffusal, Deso CAN be more effective on a hero than Butterfly. Look at heroes like PL, Slark, Mirana, etc. They don't rush Butterfly because other items are 10x more effective on them, even though the item is still good on them, and they should get it, it isn't the most godly ultimate item either because a Mirana can do so much more with a Desolator, and a PL can do WAYYY more with a Diffusal Blade. Yes, Butterfly damage is great, but something like armor reduction from a Desolator or Assault Cuirass can benefit you AND your team more than a second Butterfly.
In regards to the TL;DR thing, it was very accurate to what I was talking about. The entire paragraph I wrote was about how Butterfly stacking is bad, and then my TL;DR says don't buy Butterfly, I don't see how this can confuse you unless you have some kind of issue with reading.
Your last paragraph completely countered everything you just said "but in most cases you will have other items which you need to buy (maybe a HoT/MKB/Hex) which would only allow you to buy 1." So now I don't know what you were even arguing...
Just don't stack it, HoT has way better value since you will have more HP to survive nukes and other shit you can't avaoid.
@[TO] Wink and other who think like him
Consider evasion as a % boost to your HP. The second butterfly gives you less evasion, but MORE % boost. Just to clarify.
Butterflies may stack evasion diminishingly but their EHP increase is directly multiplicative. Obviously you won't get 100% evasion but each butterfly actually offers MORE benefit than the previous one in terms of what it gives you. For all those naysayers who insist that the reduced evasion makes it worse, here's the math:
Let's say you have 100 hp and 0 armour.
0 Butterflies - 100 Effective HP (EHP, refers to the amount of physical damage needed to kill you)
1 Butterfly - 35% evasion - 153.85 EHP (54 EHP boost from first butterfly, 54% EHP boost from 0)
2 Butterflies - 57.75% evasion - 236.69 EHP (83 EHP boost from second butterfly alone, 54% EHP boost from 1 butterfly, 137% boost from 0)
3 Butterflies - 72.54% evasion - 364.50 EHP (128 EHP boost from third butterfly alone, 54% EHP boost from 2 butterflies, 265% boost from 0)
As you can see, the 3rd butterfly alone gives you 128 hp more against physical attacks, as opposed to the 54 hp from the 1st butterfly. Each one is better than the last. If you actually get 6 (and you shouldn't), the 6th butterfly gives you 468 hp (or 468% boost to your base hp if you want to look at it in terms of your base). This is nearly ten times the effectiveness of your first butterfly alone.
Mathematically butterflies stacks gives you progressively larger EHP boosts based on the base HP. Each butterfly basically multiplies your current EHP against physical attacks by 154%, inclusive of previous butterfly bonuses. Against late carries who don't like to get MKB such as Spectre and Medusa, it actually provides one of the best scales for EHP given a decent base. The real reason why it isn't practical is because those slots are often needed for items which provide greater utility, as Butterfly is an item that literally contributes only to manfights and nothing else.
TL;DR in the correct situation (rarely) each butterfly you stack gives more than the previous one, so stack 'em.
why don't pro players stack butterflies; because its bad. Duh. The person above me is just trolling u guys.
@Eric Kamezou
You're the real troll here.
It's like asking why pro players don't stack Rapiers. The answer is that they actually do, in the right situation. Except that this 'right situation' is considerably rare. Everything in my post is verifiable and correct, while you don't even bother to respond to anything constructively and call it a troll post. Fuck off.
"hurrdurr i'm too stupid to understand numbers and stuff it must be false, dont listen to him guys he must be trolling!"
^^ as Zenoth said
You need to think of evasion in chance to 1/x form or chance to get hit. An example would be to go from 98% evasion to 99% evasion. That 1% evasion gain reduces your chance to get hit from 2% to 1%. So that means you have halved the chance to get hit going from 98% evasion to 99% evasion. That will double your EHP!
Converted to fractions to make more intuitive for some people.
Evasion % | chance to evade | chance to hit
1) 35.00% evasion = ~3.0/9 evade - ~6.0/9 chance of taking damage
2) 57.75% evasion = ~5.0/9 evade - ~4.0/9 chance of taking damage
3) 72.54% evasion = ~6.5/9 evade - ~2.5/9 chance of taking damage
4) 82.15% evasion = ~7.5/9 evade - ~1.5/9 chance of taking damage
5) 88.40% evasion = ~8.0/9 evade - ~1.0/9 chance of taking damage
6) 92.46% evasion = ~8.3/9 evade - ~0.7/9 chance of taking damage
And EH increases are calculated by doing 1/(1-evasion). Each butterfly will give you around 54% more EHP based on the current EHP. So 6 butterflies actually gives 13.26 x base HP as EHP.
This may be much better than a heart against physical attacks (bar MKB) in the late game depending on your base HP pool.
Obviously this is all useless against magic, but stacked butterfly is not necessarily useless. You can get health back with satanic and if you are a blinker you should be taking out those squishy supports first then just eating the tank alive :)
Actually almost no one here said it is bad. It's just easily countered is the main reason.
It's bad enough for it's own reasons without people misunderstanding it and talking about how badly it scales because of diminishing evasion.
Even if you have 10000% evasion, it won't dodge spells. Why do you act as if your evasion will make you 5 times tankier if most of the damage dealt by most heroes is spell damage? Not only that but sure, you halved the chance to get hit, but overall, you just reduced the chance of being hit by 1% anyways. Very miniscule chance changed by a miniscule number, but you guys make it sound like a big deal.
Not sure if trolling or...
nobody its claiming it's the better option. just correcting how you are mistaken. technically correct, but mistaken.
"If you want a THIRD Butterfly, it will barely be effective for evasion.
57.75% + 35% x 42.25%
0.5775 + 0.35 x 0.4225 = 0.725375
Three Butterflies will get you approximately 72.54% evasion chance, just about 15% more evasion than only two Butterflies, not even half as much as the item gives you without stacking.
Overall, it is best that you do not try to stack evasion."
in situations where evasion is good, it is in fact better. that's it. I agree that stacking butterflies is seldom the best option, but that doesn't make it invalid. Is stacking Rapiers a good option? Usually not, but it won Navi their only win against DK.
[TO] Wink seems to have trouble reading. 10000% evasion...It's not a surprise you are struggling to understand the mathematics of this lol.
No one has neglected that MKB and magic go through evasion. Dota is a situational game, so it is not inconceivable that there may be a
situation where stacked evasion is a good play. Butterfly is pretty much the agility item you can get, the evasion is a great bonus if the enemy lacks MKB too. Even if they do have MKB, which they probably will late game you don't sell a butterfly because of that. Maybe if all 5 has MKB you would but I don't see what other item would give you such good attack speed and armor bonus and damage bonus. Maybe AC, you'd have to crunch the figures.
If the enemy is all magic, sure evasion is useless. You'll want pipes, hoods, disables etc. But TBH if the enemy is all magic and you have enough gold for multiple butterflies in most situations you will BKB then eat them alive.
If the enemy really doesn't have a lot of magic, stacking butterfly can be a pretty decent play. Of course you have to make sure you have the damage output to go with it.
Oh and just to add, evasion didn't stack prior to 6.79 patch so stacking butterfly was not as attractive. Maybe one day you will see stacked butterfly in a pro game.
It's not about the diminishing stacking - it would still be the best item in the game almost always to keep stacking if there were no MKB. It's the fact that the more you invest in it, the more gold you've wasted once your opponents buy a sheep stick or MKB. It's basically putting all your eggs in one basket... we have learned not to do that since kindergarten.
Still it might be worth it if only 1 enemy gets mkb. Also no carry would stack bfly before having a bkb if opponent team has magical damage+lockdown. To me it seems a good idea if gyrocopter for example after bkb bfly satanic, goes for 2nd bfly if other team struggles to build mkb. Also i would like to add that EHP are increased further if you take in account the armor butterfly provides.
Gyro should go MKB next for the true strike... especially if he already has bfly
MKB is just too strong on ranged hero's to not prioritize.
"Situational"
Give me one situation EVER where the enemy team has completely insignificant magic damage or disable in a non-trash tier pub with 5 carries on each team.
It's not worth it. MKB is much easier to build. The main physical damage dealer on the opponent side is going to go MKB anyway, ESPECIALLY if he sees you building 2nd Butterfly. And why would you need evasion against enemy's supports' physical attacks who usually rely on abilities to dish out damage anyway? Crystal Maiden (and the like) right clicking isn't threatening, most offlaners and mids are usually not great right clickers either (and in cases where they have a good right click, MKB becomes a great pickup for them too). So in 99% of situations you're better off just getting a big damage item instead of a second Butterfly.
It's stack has a probability, the natural way. So two buterfly you have 0.5775 chance to dodge.
Main issue is two buterfly are countered by one mkb.
As many have said multiple butterflies is almost never the optimal choice for a real game situation. It's not because of the diminishing effects. The stacking effect is actually just as effective each time you stack, just like with armor. When you count Effective Hit Points you will see each additional bit of evasion/armor/magic resistance etc is the same value as the last.
The reason its rarely correct to stack things like this is that you are defending along only one line of attack. Getting all armor items means you are weak against magic dmg. Getting all magic resistance means you are weak against physical dmg. Only hp defends against pure dmg. Evasion is removed by true strike sure... but also by hex. Late game a carry is better off with a combination of armor and hp against a competent team because if they are really in trouble they will be hexed and evasion will do nothing. If you don't get things done while magic immune then you will get disabled and die. If you don't have mobility then you will not be able to position to deal your dmg. If you don't have truesight ppl can escape. If you don't have any lifesteal or major healing supports you can't sustain in a fight as a carry late game. You have to use some of everything against competent players. Its not even possible to hold all the times you need for every situation so you have to make choices.
not worth stacking due to diminishing returns which reduce the item cost effectiveness. Definitely get it on heroes that have built in evasion such as pa, panda. etc
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In the latest patch things changed and Evasion now stacks. This means that a carry player who builds 2-3 butterflies is practically invulnerable to physical attacks.
Butterfly
Gold-6000
+ 30 Agility
+ 30 Damage
+ 35% Evasion
+ 30 Attack Speed.
Especially in those cases when the opposite's team carry hero doesn't built mkb , it is totally worth it. And even when he builts it the 4 other players of enemy team can't touch him. Never seen that built in a competitive game though. People prefer daedalus/mkb as their damage items. Also in my opinion evasion more important than armor, hp. Thoughts?