General DiscussionDon't get how MMR works

u win u get +
u lose u get -

easy as 1 2 3

^ actually there was game posted on devs forum yesterday wher loser gained +60rating while winner on support got +20

Your personal performance does not change mmr. Only thing that affects MMR is if your team win or lose.

And yes, it is possible to lose mmr when you win.

Yes, different players gain different amount of rating per game.

If you want details, read:
http://forum.gamesports.net/dota/showthread.php?74955-How-ranked-MMR-actually-works

Pure support players aren't going to have great MMRs then?

Please stop spreading false information.

RM LORDY, no that is not true.

@Nolf_
That theory is false. It's clear that factors other than win/lose have an effect on your MMR.
How would you explain a 50% win rate solo player constantly playing on the front page while some other 70% solo player isn't even on the first 20 pages?

Can all you fucking idiots STOP SPECULATING ABOUT MMR SYSTEM
nobody will ever care about what you think about how it COULD be or what it MIGHT BE?

STOP spreading this insane false information.

@Kidades

easily:

If I have 50% winrate against top dota players I am better then someone who has 70% winrate agains random medium level players.

you can lose mmr even if you won

@Nolf and @Sir

its not false information at all. You just don't fully understand the effects of very high uncertainty values on the MMR calculations. as time passes and players play more and more, supports suffering should diminish, but valve has not shared the specifics of their true skill equation, and players really only have the basic trueskill algorythm to go on.

So in short, none of us have all the information, but no one is spreading false information by reporting the only factual findings we have available. Many players are reporting that supports get are getting less points after games and have lower ratings.

http://forum.gamesports.net/dota/showthread.php?74955-How-ranked-MMR-actually-works
That will explain the system the best. The poster also edited his post at the end, and stated that its possible that valves iteration of true skill does factor in individual statistics.

Stop pretending like we know for sure what is and isn't false information.

bullsit i played like 30 +++ solo ranked mm games and never got rating from losing no matter how good i play be it support or carry or even mid

and it takes 1 retard to make u lose the game which is quite sad

^ this

@vaikiss
You represent the top .05% of players even when you started MMR. Your experience may not be reflective of other players.

Regardless, to those concerned, valve wont be sharing their algorithm most likely, and the best thing to do is play your best in ranked and as your uncertainty value bottoms out, less deviations will be noted.

@Nolf_
That article you linked contains lot of false information. Performance actually does affect MMR. I have two games where I have lost the game but I still gained MMR. In those games I was second highest or highest rating on our side and my mates lost MMR for that game but I gained some (+22 and +7). http://dotabuff.com/matches/422925273 http://dotabuff.com/matches/423430418

thats the problem doesn't matter how good i play 1 single guy can make us lose the game

for example yesterday we were playing vs push strat we were -1 side raxes at 22 minute and then 1 guy got picked off 4 times in a row which lead us winning couple teamfights and getting rosh and we turned game around

sadly most of those"getting picked off" guys ends up in my team and mostly as carries or mids cuz their ego's don't let them play supports so yeah

either STACK or lose ....

@poroksi did you even read the article?

direct quote from it:
"MMR can drop after a win or increase after a loss and here's why. If you remember how MMR is calculated from your mean skill rating: MMR = mean - (3 x uncertainty). Mean always goes up after a win and goes down after a loss. In a game where the system heavily favors you to win and you do win, your uncertainty drops very little and you gain very little points. If you recall, the game adds some uncertainty to your rating before each game to stop ratings from stagnating. In such games, the amount your uncertainty drops after the game is not enough to offset the extra uncertainty the system applies to you before the game resulting in your uncertainty actually going up and in conjunction with only a very slight increase in mean rating, ultimately results in a net decrease in MMR."

http://forum.gamesports.net/dota/showthread.php?74955-How-ranked-MMR-actually-works

Also some people think that if your team wins, everyone in team gets same + rating. That is false.

Everyone gets rating based on the rating they previously had, his uncertainity rating and mmr rating of enemy players.

Okey so tell me why would I be only one to gain MMR if I'm the highest MMR of our team and we lose, that doesn't really make sense if performance isn't looked at all.

And on that Viper game I was second highest and I did atleast 3 times more hero dmg than any of my teammates and after the game my MMR raised but my friend that had higher MMR at the time lost MMR (almost 50) and my friend who had less MMR than me lost MMR too

Uncertainity rating plays big role also, but since yesterday we can't see it (valve removed the command).

If you have high uncertainity rating, the change of mmr will be bigger then someone who has low uncertainity rating.

"Okey so tell me why would I be only one to gain MMR if I'm the highest MMR of our team and we lose, that doesn't really make sense if performance isn't looked at all."

You had very high uncertainity rating, that means the system was not sure if you rating is calibrated properly. The other 4 players in your team had low uncertainity, that means the system was pretty sure their rating is calibrated well.

Your team lost, but because the system was not sure you even should have had such high rating(because of high uncertainity), the result is you gained rating even if you lost because system is trying to calibrate it better for you. It is not very easy to explain.

oh my god............ ?

so what youre saying is that Vavle is giving us false information and your speculations are right? and the reason youre correct is because we have no information ?

How could you be that dumb?

@Sir what?

Do you guys even read?

"We also track our uncertainty about your MMR. New accounts and those playing in Ranked Matchmaking for the first time have high uncertainty. Higher uncertainty allows larger adjustments after each match, and lower uncertainty leads to smaller adjustments. Together, the MMR and uncertainty can be interpreted as a probability distribution of performance in your next game; the MMR itself serves as the mean of this distribution and the uncertainty is its standard deviation. If the match outcomes (both the win/loss and individual performance) repeatedly match our expectations, the uncertainty tends to decrease until it reaches a floor. A surprising match outcome will tend to cause an increase in uncertainty."

"It is possible for an individual MMR to increase after a loss or decrease after a win, but in general the winning team’s average MMR will increase and the losing team’s MMR will decrease."

I repeat things posted by valve... and you call them my speculations.... rofl...

my mmr drop in last 12 games

-26 -32 -27 -24-25 +26-18 -26 +18 -26 -27 +19 - 25 +24 +20

i lose like much more than i win that sucks

Only hero where you might actually end up losing points by playing your role is treant.

I managed to lose 6 points in this game, http://dotabuff.com/matches/426904431 , despite me keeping up all but one tower (after multiple pushes).

Most likely as I was only in 18/49 kills and had only 5k dmg, however I'm fucking treant so ye...

Even if you die lots on support as long as you get a lot of assists you will still gain rating. In fact supports like veno will be more likely to gain more points from games than single target carry heroes that don't get lots of assists.

@Nolf_
It is funny how you skip this part "Win/loss is the primary criteria used to update MMR, but individual performance also plays a role, especially when our uncertainty about your MMR is high." This CLEARLY says that invidual performance does affect MMR. Do you even read m8?

I had very similar uncertaincy as my mates on those games, because we all had played same amount of ranked games at that point, so your argument of me having higher uncertaincy isn't valid.

@poroksi

now you see how pointless is to have arguments when every side just picks what they want and don't take into account the whole thing.

if people just look at themselves and base their whole argument on what happened to them, that is not representative at all.

And just to be devils advocate, we have no idea what Valve understand when talking about individual performance. Also you can notice it influences mmr only when uncertainty is high(ie first 10 calibrating matches).

Ranked MM is all based on luck currently, you either get a decent team or you get one single retard who just spoils it all for you.

@Nolf_
So you do agree that it atleast affects in the calibration games? Untill this point you tried to state that it doesn't play a role in the rating at all.

Yes it might be that invidual performance onlu affects high uncertaincy games or that it affects normal uncertaincy games only by little, I don't have any proof to either direction now but my experience is that atleast it played a role in the calibration games which I linked.

Yea seems like it does, but I thought you are talking about normal ranked games, because the calibrating games are pretty wild when it comes to rating.

Well you could have checked my match history and see that those games I linked were in my first 10 ranked games but w/e.

If someone has normal ranked games where they have gained MMR from losing please link to this thread so we can get more information about the system.

Hahaha. im out!

whatever rankings, there's some myth factors involved, hero damage is sure counted in

shit is completely broken(i mean mm ofc) i got +30rating on my other account and only thing i did was feeding 8 couriers die 10times with 0 assists and 0 kills while stacking trenches for 25minutes next to our t3 D; (my team completely destroyed enemy 4v5-that rated mm)

Volvo loves feeder cause they made 5 ppl happy and 4 ppl sad. What a positive contribution lol

@buy hats and stfu

link match ID, I do not believe you since the last time I called you pulling shit out of your ass

http://dotabuff.com/matches/431168413

I believe that the first 10 matches where your mmr has yet to be calculated are where your skills (gpm kda etc.) are assessed. Beyond that, it is purely based on win rate. Just had a match where I went 21 14 as Ancient Apparition with no one else on my team getting over 5 kills and my mmr went down by 25 points immediately after the match. http://dotabuff.com/matches/627436629

It seems to be that your skill is only assessed once, and after you get your mmr it is completely based on how good the team you are randomly paired up with is. This makes me rather upset because I played 10 ranked matches right when ranked matchmaking came out and I feel as though I have gotten better since then, but after 30 more ranked matches my mmr has only gone down because of the team I was matchmade with. To me, that makes mmr completely useless except at assessing your skill beyond the first 10 games. If valve wants to salvage the mmr system, they should somehow allow you to clear your mmr or somehow let players enter games of 1 on 1. Unfortunately, this would alienate players who play anything but mid, however, it would still make the matchmaking system more useful than it is now.

"my mmr has only gone down because of the team"

sure mate, always noob teams volvo fix pls

Gain mmr is easy as it is.