General DiscussionDiscussion: Win mid win the game?

I would have to watch the replay mah man to be able to tell you but let it be said that mid about 75% of the time, is the key to winning or losing a game.

Yeah anyone that can watch it would be nice.

I really like the new blink dagger and range on sniper though..... very nice

win mid-game* = win the game.

pubs dont count though.

Interesting that you didn't go for more agi/attack speed. Snipers bashing is really annoying. Anyway I haven't watched yet but my observations from the scoreboard are.

Your team sucked balls.
* Their last hitting is terrible compared to the opponents, even disruptor out did your Nightstalker
* Nightstalker, how is it even possible to average 1 last hit per minute?
You are the only ranged hero
All your teams items are selfish items. No hex, no slows, no silence, no auras.
* The other team have pipe, mek, 2x shivas, sheep stick

Even a sniper who is quite fed cannot have the game impact of equivalent feed on snowball mid heroes.

yea item choices seem to be the biggest problem

-low attack speed
-no mkb
-blink dagger might be nice early/mid game but you are better off replacing it late game

Thx guys. I appreciate the feedback with non-smart ass comments. What a breath of fresh air! :D

@ djgandy

I hit lvl 25 around 35 min mark. I was hitting for about .58 seconds per hit. Should be higher then? I felt more AGI wasn't going to help with that. it kind of tapers down but was this an incorrect assumption?

Agreed, their last hitting was terrible. Disruptor was very tanky I was surprised at 20 min in he was 7/1.

Yes I was the only ranged hero.... That was a BIG mistake on my part i felt like. This was completely my fault. I was captain in the captain draft. Didn't really want to pick night stalker or sand king towards the end of the picks, but the sand king was threatening to feed if he didn't get it.... idk? what to do... so i picked it! :(
Yes no support items from the supports was a huge ouch on our team. It hurt badly not having a mek or pipe or any teamfight items at all.

@ Spirestoner

Yes my head said get an MKB, but my heart said get 2x daedalus for higher crit chance. It would of really helped out on that TA. I knew she had evasion and I did make a bad late game choice on that.

Again Low attack speed on the sniper. .58 seconds per attack on sniper too slow? <----------- Thoughts people? What should be the attack per second on a lvl 25 sniper? I think .30 is the highest I've seen but required a mjolliner and an AC. I didn't have room! :O

Was going to trade out the blink dagger for another item late game but it was really saving my bacon a lot. It was the last item to go, but did help me TP boots, then rax their top tower but by then it was too late since my team was wiped at the end.

Watching so far. You have 65 damage and you go Midas. You then miss lots of last hits you'd have got with more damage and lots of denies that would have been easier. What a waste of gold. You could have gone Crystalys for that money and possibly got more TA kills. From this point on your last hit rate gets a lot worse. Midas is actually costing you gold. You are mid so you don't need the XP boost.

Next you go treads, then blink dagger @level 12 and you don't have a point in shrapnel for vision and tower damage.

You could have been packing a real punch by this stage of the game. Instead you have some items that give you very little. Blink dagger is great for you escaping, but crap for your team, and with SB on the other team it may only delay your death.

.58 is not that high, you had BM's aura to help a bit, but the difference between .58 and say .45 is huge, nearly 30% more attacks. You'll get a much higher crit chance if you are attacking more.

I'd have swapped a Daedalus for butterfly and the blink dagger for MKB or Assault Cuirass (This has a team benefit and also armor reduction.

Your focus is poor at times too. Bane is at about 700 range and you barely notice him, you then farm the creep next to him :|

Successfully gank from mid=win game.

won many game where my mid was disgusting

@ djgandy

Thanks for the view. Yeah I got greedy with the HOM and got it before 6:00min. I have been losing with HoM if I grab it. I need to take it out of my rotation. Bad item choice apparently! Not a fan anymore!

Yes SB was a problem early/mid game even with blink. Tried blinking into trees but no luck 2 times with it. I really didn't want to opt for shadow blade since dust/spirit breaker charge wouldn't help me. Keep blink dagger for escape mech on sniper still though? I need something for an escape so its one or the other!

So shrapnel..... I have a tough time putting points into it. When should I start putting points in it? I was opting for stats instead bc not much of a fan of shrapnel. Should I get it post lvl 10? then do the usual stats build after 17?

Yeah forgot about beast master aura helping me out. I can't remember if I was calcing that near or away with him. Yes AC or mkb should of been picked.

Hrmm.. i think the bane focus was in the woods fight and I was afraid of getting ulted or nightmared since everyone was down. I'll have to check it out again.

@ Christian

Yes successfully gank from mid=lose the game this case. Your math does not equate. Check your canooder valve algorithm and divide by 0.

I'm not really sure about this game but i can guess that their team plays better than your team,
I disagree with if you won mid means you won the game because
In a game like dota anything could happen

In the world of pubs nothing matters. As Notail likes to say "If game goes full retard, you go with it. If you only go half retard, you're fucked". I've had a lot of games where my team is completely destroyed early AND mid game, but for some reason enemy team doesn't push and we end up farming up our items and winning at like 50 minute mark.

Win mid = win mid
Destroy enemy ancient = win game

Also 2 daedalus is meh on sniper, you could have benefitted from a bfly or mkb.

And wtf blink dagger?

About what to improve,

I would build MKB instead of Daedalus for the third damage item
the reason is because the 2nd daedalus doesn't add the crit damage which make it less effective compared to Deso+Dae+MKB Not only this will make you don't miss but also the chance of crit of first daedalus will also increased

Nice HD

I just watched the replay and it seems in the end your attack speed is very low for a lv 25 sniper,

Rather than going the hard way, wasting time on midas and drag the game until 1 hour
i would rather just go phase->MoM->Dae and finish it quick
considering this TA doesn't even consider in building blink dagger and
their heroes has better end game than your team

MKB was definitely the best choice once you knew TA was going Butterfly. If TA didn't have evasion you should have gotten an AC to help deal with the -armor from TA. Sniper really needs attack speed in order to take full advantage of his bash.

Wining mid doesnt make you win the game

Ive had many matches that my team feeds and i won my lane
Even when i ganked after the gank they died when i left

@ Dorkly

TY It was a ton of hero damage right? 39.6k is my top now.

@ Yfay Alright yeah I don't play sniper too often since at my MMR I am usually forced to support. (Hence the no mek/pipe on my team! o noes!)

PHase boots instead of Power treads huh? MoM and Phase would be good enough escape I think good call. TY for input. DAE I am guessing you mean Daedalus right?

@ DaCheat

Yeah the butterfly i saw after they crushed our mid rax. I should of gone MKB but for some dumb reason I thought manta + 2x Daedelus crits would of done better. WRONG :( Yes I need more Increased attack speed apparently. .58 just wasn't enough! Thought it was good but apparently I am hearing the opposite. Thanks for the input guys out of this group, you guys always give a real assessment instead of an ass comment so that goes a long way in my book.

@ ESP WINK

Well I went blink dagger so I could hide in trees and hit people with my long range. It worked here and there, but I think the phase/MoM would give me just as good escape mechanism and the increased attack speed i need. My hope was "I have 4 melee so they will be tanking dmg while I blink in trees and hit the other team" but it was kind of more like everyone grouped up for a team fight very early before blink, then after when mid rax was gone. So didn't turn out!

Blink is unnecessary for positioning as sniper, you have the best range in the game. Just sit wayyy back until you see enemy heroes clashing, then just shoot from maximum distance.

@ Wink

Yeah It was my first attempt with blink dagger. I read another thread on here about hiding in woods with blink while team is in fight. I think a MoM would be better to replace it with IMO after the experience.

MoM is great on Sniper, but it is also situational. Another option is Desolator, which doesn't stack with the lifesteal, so you would get it instead of the MoM. It offers more overall damage, and it is EXTREMELY deadly, also does a lot to towers. If you build a Desolator though, you will need attack speed items like Mjolnir/AC.

Win mid is almost a guaranteed loss

http://dotabuff.com/matches/497504048

Yes my friend it doesnt really matter how much HD you do, its sad but true :/

@ Wink,

Ty i forget about the "doesn't stack with other items" rule since I rarely play mid/carry and usually support. Next time I carry mid on sniper I'll keep the deso in mind and ask "anyone else getting deso?" I feel its a real teamfight need on someone!

@ Dorkly

Wow 42.2k dmg. Well thats an ass ton but that disruptor idk... its like he may as well stayed in base so he didn't feed 17 deaths yikes....

How you define winning mid changes based on the game. Yes you generally need to win mid to win the game, or at least not lose it, but pudge winning mid looks a lot different than sniper or drow winning mid. If you are a sniper or drow or other farming carry you want to farm mid and kill the tower. If you're pudge you don't give a crap about farm, you want to hook and kill the other mid and go gank. If you're qop same deal, you want to farm some but your priority is diving their mid and ganking. Same with nightstalker. Puck needs to go gank. Death prophet doesn't give a crap about ganking or farming, she wants to destroy the tower asap and go push other lanes. Lich just wants to get level 6+ and go team fight. So it's all relative. It can appear you are losing mid and the game if say their pudge leaves to go gank your long lane, but if your mid is a farming hero and gets several minutes of free farm you can come out on top cus he left.

I didn't watch your game but I would never build sniper that way. I would absolutely trade a deadulus for an mkb and the other daedulus for a skadi. You'd be super tanky then. I'm not sure blink is even needed that late, mask of madness might be better, you get movement plus lifesteal which will be a lot late game, plus massive attack speed burst. I even like mjolnirs more than daedulus for sniper, proc more headshots plus the lightning jump is a ton of dmg. My 6 slot sniper build would probably be boots of travel (so you don't need to carry tps), skadi, mask of madness, mkb, manta (maybe not as high a dmg item as other stuff but stats and movement speed are gold), and mjolnirs.

@ Let the wookie win

Yep I made a big mistake going 2x daedelus for sure. Will trade with MKB next time when I spot an evasion item on a hero, or passive evasion skill on the hero. I will go AC if I don't see it on my team, or Mjollnir for the IAS.

Same with Blink, I think I will trade with MoM early I think it would help with IAS (increased attack speed Old diablo term....)

Agreed on the define winning mid. Gankers b gankers, and tower crushers are tower crushers, team fighters need ult and go team fight.

I don't think blink is bad, the new mana free blink is an awesome item, and mid games it's sweet. I'm only saying late game 6 slotted I wouldn't keep it. Mid game if you can blink out of ganks and blink into ganks you're going to be hard to contend with.

@ Let the wookie win:

Hmmmm.... Yeah I felt it was really effective unless SB charged and I couldn't get a passive headshot to stun him with. I think I'll keep it in the situational category though. If I'm underfarmed (hard to do with sniper sooooooooooooo ez to last hit/deny) I will pass it up and opt for MoM instead for my escape mechanism (I HATE Shadow blade....)

Yes... I should of sold it past mid game! I really didn't need it. The only time it came in handy late game was when I was attempting to back door them and blinked into woods then tp boots outta there! Shoulda sold it for something else! Always helpful wookie tyvm again!

I find sniper to be useless without MoM

I dont know bout mid wins game won thing. But i sure know that if mid lose like 0-5, then its 90% gg.

sometimes it is a mix of mid being bad and your team not knowing how to gank mid. I can win mid easy as sniper but I cant win mid with no obs no tps and they are 3 man ganking over and over.

winning your lane and winning the game have nothing to do with each other. In my 3000 games with OD, I win almost always my lane, still I lost 49% of all games.

@ Sampson

Yeah Wish I would of done the MoM I am having regrets now. Will probably use that as an IAS item but keep blink in the mix. Haven't fully decided yet. I think I'll view some of your games tonight to see how you play sniper.

Yes agreed, ganking mid is not talked about much and the community for the most part expects mid to gank/rune control. I've seen plenty of pro games where side lanes come to gank mid. Highly underrated tactic.

@ Smaug.

Poor guy! That OD is OP! I should take a look at some of your OD games. I have low win's with OD and would like to do better.

@ Lucky bird.

That tended to be the issue in my game i posted but was the issue with top/bottom this time around. Agree anyone going 0/5 real quick and early is a sign of damn this is probably over!

Thanks,