General DiscussionOrchid Malevolence situational item on PA?

A typical ganking pa build would be phase boots, drums, bkb, whatever

Shut up plz,no orchid on Pa LMAO. you buy bkb and you have crit why would you ever need fckn orchid

orchid on PA sounds like daedalus on kotl to me.

^ This? http://dotabuff.com/topics/2014-03-17-kotl-new-meta

I could see it situationally after bkb... but only if it was a team strat to shut down opponents.... even then its not very good item for her.

And that is only because of the 20% extra damage the target takes...

For roughly the same 5k gold you spent on an orchid you could get (or within a few hundred gold) much better items. IMO Orchid is a wasted item on PA. BKB if you're worried about a disable.

^ It's actually 30% bonus damage. When you combine that with even one Coup de Grâce that's a ton of damage.

@BogiDotO

Did you even read my post? I already outlined that should buy a BKB.

Where the hell are mods when you get shit posting like this?

@cm.artemis

I'm saying Orchid to disable their escape. I think BKB is core on PA.

Again I'm asking if OM makes sense as a situational item after your core: Phase Boots, HotD, BKB, Basher

Any dps item will add significant dmg to her crits. The money spent on an orchid isn't worth the silence dmg buff imo. You can try it sure, but it provides limited utility.

you wont have mana?
what the fuck?

@Stinkoman If you're going gank only and you have phase, hotd, bkb, basher I guess you could sometimes choose orchid. For that amount of gold you could finish your abyssal and start on satanic or something else, but if you need silence more than 2s stun, you could always get it.

I mean, big picture, orchid is not the worst thing to have. At least it adds damage, mana, regen, and has a silence with a dmg buff. I just think "situational" here means very rarely, but it could happen. If your target doesn't have bkb, linkens, sb, help, and doesnt see you coming, then sure thing =)

no
since when does PA need mana
da fuq

For about the same cost you could upgrade that basher into an abyssal, tons more dmg, stun on demand > silence/dmg amplification. I don't know if I'd even do orchid as a 6th slot item, I'd probably go scythe of vyse- stats vs dmg, hex vs silence.

@cm.artemis

Good point about the Abyssal, but also consider its active ability. It costs a whopping 150 mana! Do you really want to rush Abyssal for its active or will you be satisfied with its passive bash? The way I look it, +0.6 to your stun does not offer as much utility. Yes, I realize it goes through BKB.

By getting the Orchid instead, your opportunity cost is as follows:

-325 in your pocket
-30 damage
-76 HP

But the upside is attack speed, damage amp (better than Vlads IMO), silence and tons of mana (+regen) for your Abyssal Blade later.

@Let the Wookie win

I concede that Scythe is a better item overall, but again, if you're roaming/ganking all the time, can you really build up the item without hardcore farming?

Scythe:

2700 + 2100 + 875

Orchid:

325x2 + 450x2 + 900x2 + 775

Ganking playstyle is a risk/reward proposition and you may not have enough reliable gold if some ganks fail or get countered.

go die
we're teaching u how to play and if u dont like it just gtfo trash

I mean yeah, if you're a PA and you are up against an ember spirit or a storm spirit or a puck you can just silence them and wreck them. But often times it's just better to pick a better hero than PA because PA is trash. Win the game earlier, pick Death Prophet and tell them to suck it.

bfury > orchid on PA

875 + 875 + 1400 + 1200

@Benao | Dotabuff.Com

I'm asking if it's worth a situational pickup. I don't use it in my standard build. I also would ever only play PA in the 1 position.

However, if you did go a ganking build, you would never even consider it?

@Sirius Less

I wouldn't build Orchid on a hard carry PA.

That's not the point of this topic.

I agree that Battle Fury is better if you're AFK farming. If you're roaming the map for ganks, why do you need a cleave?

Hi stinkoman,

Yeah PA doesn't really need much mana so lets do the break down:

Orchid cost: 5025 gold
Active: Soul Burn - Silences target unit for 5.0 seconds and amplifies the damage it takes by 30.0%.<----Good
+ 25 Intelligence<----- Bad mana pool not needed
+ 30 Attack Speed<----- OK
+ 30 Damage<----OK
+ 150% Mana Regeneration<---- Not really needed.

So you'll gain 19*25 int = 475 mana to your pool. Not really needed. Her spells are the 30 mana dagger lvl 1, then goes down to 15 mana at lvl 4. Phantom strike lvl 1-4 is always 50 mana.

Base mana pool @ lvl 1 is 247 mana. Not really needing 475 extra mana here.

You're only gaining 30 dmg, and 30 attack speed + 5 seconds of 30% damage amplification. So say a "naked" PA at LVL 11 would do 141.75 dmg + 30 dmg = 171.75 + 30% = 223.275 damage. Thats for only 5 seconds.

I would really get it as a VERY rare situational item like against a blink type person like queen of pain, or Anti-Mage so they dont blink out. Thats the only situation I would do it BUT think of it this way if you face up on them. Grab a skull basher to abyssal blade. The cost and value for PA is worth it:

Skull basher:
Passive: Bash - Gives a chance to stun for 1.4 seconds.
+ 40 Damage
+ 6 Strength
MELEE CHANCE: 25%
RANGED CHANCE: 10%

So you get 10 more damage, no attack speed increase, and a bit more health 6*19= 114 HP which is needed for PA since most AGI. heros are lacking health.

Then you upgrade to an abyssal later for those pesky escapists and use the active on it:

Gold: 6750
Active: Stun a target enemy unit for 2.0 seconds. Goes through Magic Immunity.
Passive: Bash - Gives a chance to stun for 1.4 seconds.
Doesn't stack with other bashes.
+ 100 Damage
+ 10 Strength
MELEE CHANCE: 25%
RANGED CHANCE: 10%

Advantage: Passive and active stuns and goes through BKB

+100 dmg instead of just +30 from orchid.

+10 str so 19*10= 190 Health now.

Disadvantage: It costs 1525 more than Orchid.

Here is another cast option that might help with your mana pool early/mid game and will be a lot cheaper to purchase:

Medallion of Courage:

Cost: 1075

Active: Valor - Reduces the armor of you and your target. Lasts 7 seconds.
+ 6 Armor
+ 50% Mana Regeneration
ARMOR REDUCTION: -6

If you want more damage, and some mana regen there is the item you want Early game. This would work better I think than an orchid really debuffing 6 armor off of someone.

Well I wouldn't see why you would force her to play a role that doesn't suit her best traits, but I suppose if you're in some type of heavy carry team or no one is willing to support....

But then you could argue theories all day about stuff like this, i.e. MoM/Armlet on Treant or Dagon/Ethereal on Sniper.

I mean, I've done it, and it's worked - probably because I did it in games that were probably over anyway.

I think the answer is yes.

Your question is if you played ganker PA, which you never do, would it ever be ok to get orchid? Sure lol.

If you play a character who is best used as a hard carry in some other way, why bother caring if you're doing it "right" lol?

Basically if silence helps you more than the benefits of other items, get it. I think more often you are better of getting a stun, more damage, illusions (manta costs almost same as orchid, too), armor debuff (deso), just about anything other than orchid. But like you said, this isn't for a PA playing the 1 position. It's for some special kind of PA that wants to solo gank Storm Spirit.

@ Stinkoman

You want cleave for those team fight situations. Think of cleave and you hit a crit in a team fight and other heros are close to that hero? It's huge dmg potential when heros clump up close to each other.

I agree the Bfury if you are spamming daggers/blink strike on people and drain your pool fast you could just grab void stone first if your mana is handicapped. That should be enough to get you there.

orchid is situational and legit on all heroes

@-hg- Cpt. Caveman

Re your 1st post:

Orchid tooltip is wrong, especially if you add up the components as I did.
325x2 + 450x2 + 900x2 + 775 = 4125. That means an Abyssal Blade is actually 2625 more gold than the Orchid. However, this is irrelevant since I'm looking at a point in the game when you already have your Skull Basher. Now it comes down to Sacred Relic (3800) vs. Orchid (4125).

1 INT only gives you 13 mana points, not 19 like HP. Your base pool @ level 1 is just 169 mana.

In my original post, I advocate getting a Skull Basher first. In fact, a SB, BKB, HotD and Hyperstone even. That is your core ganking setup and gives you good damage output. If you're ganking a lot, you'll run short of mana unless you TP to base or wander past a support with Arcanes.

I forgot about Medallion of Courage. That's pretty good and very cheap and saves you an orb effect (vs Desolator).

@Sirius Lee

You've seen pub matches. You may not get to be the 1 spot. Again, this is more theory crafting if you can't hard carry (even though a lot of items overlap).

@-hg- Cpt. Caveman

Re your 2nd post

Cleave is great for the 1 spot because you'll want to AFK farm until teamfights break out.

If you're roaming and ganking, you're expressly avoiding team fights because you want to pick them off with odds in your favor. Is it really worth getting a BF in that situation? How often will you run into more than 2 heroes when roaming for ganks. How often will they be in the 500 AOE cleave?

At the point in the game where you have a SB, BKB, HotD, boots, and orchid (or battlefury), you would probably be far more likely to encounter 2-5 heroes rather than just 1, even if you're roaming.

Unless you have had some amazing farm from ganking, which would mean you snowballed and your item choices are pretty much irrelevant.

A hero who solely carries because of her ability to crit should not be building anything other than damage.

@cm.artemis

Not only Storm Spirit. Think of all the heroes with good escape mechanisms: Riki, Slark, QoP, AM, Weaver, WR, Puck, NP, Morphling (harder if he can shift to strength). You might even be able to catch Invoker by surprise.

It was just an example pointing out the absurdity of theorycrafting a hard carry out of her best role.

You're welcome to do it, just know that you're taking a character, putting into a role that isn't really viable, and then asking if a specific item build is viable on that non-viable role. It's your choice, just know what you're asking doesn't really make sense to ask. At that point "gank only" PA is your own thing, do w/e the hell you want with it.

holy shit so much text. do not, DO NOT, get ochrid on pa.

end of.

Well stinky idk my math was off and i forgot the mana pool wasn't 19 per stat and 13 thanks.

Dude just get a medallion of courage if you want roaming gank potential to debuff their armor. It makes no sense making that expensive of an item that does minimal damage output it makes no sense to do that. The only 2 situations I came up with were blinking characters, or maybe invis characters or shadow blade characters, but I left those out because if you are roam/ganking then just buy dust.

Heres my embarassment game last night of trying a "new meta" type item build on sven:

http://dotabuff.com/matches/567284180

I thought to myself "who needs bkb? I'll just go dbl crystalis and get crit hits like crazy" Stupidest thing ever and I lost the game because I didn't go core on SVEN with BKB with a bunch of bashers. Even though some people are being rough on ya here, we're just trying to save you from the double face palm like I put on myself last night. I had a 5 stack that I play with regularly and I really lost the game for them.

When you're slot 1 like PA or SVEN is, if you don't build right, you let yourself down and your team. Dont Be like my Sven build last night! :)

@cm.artemis

I agree a hard carry role is the best way to play PA. If the debate is settled that she can only play that way, then this topic is futile. However, you have to raise the question before shooting it down entirely.

Not everyone builds a Battle Fury on PA. Does that mean their builds are not viable, in your opinion?

what
dagger mana cost is 15
blink is 50

idk about ganking with a RNG based carry

@-hg- Cpt. Caveman

I'm starting believe that MoC was the solution all along to the situation I was conjuring. Thanks for pointing that out. It's really cheap and has its own damage amplification that doesn't cost mana.

Re Sven you always want critical strike, BKB and tankiness (heart, lifesteal). I'm not a big fan of MoM because I think it just makes you more vulnerable if your BKB is off cooldown. I always like HotD so I can end with a Satanic later, though I understand its appeal as a cheap attack speed buff. Most games I want an AC anyway so the MoM is redundant.

@Satellizer

Yes they are cheap, but your mana pool is tiny and you have virtually no regen.

As for RNG gankers, does this mean you don't like Chaos Knight?

@ stinkoman

Yeah sven is so slow though the dmg amp of 30% can be negated by his "E" for armor buff though. Another reason I didn't go AC on him was the bristleback was going to get it which made it redundant. Basically I screwed up not doing a BKB until it was way too late and had to ditch the armlet of mordiggian and that screwed up my MoM and armlet increased attack speed. Sub optimal. Was trying to do what kunkka on the other team was doing and fell short. Stupid idea on my part. Just do the MoC if you wanna gank thats what you're missing man.

@-hg- Cpt. Caveman

A lot of competitive builds for Sven revolve around Drums, HotD, BKB and Crystalys. Remember to pop your War Cry for 12% movement speed so you can close in pretty reliably. You should have enough movement speed by then.

Agreed about MoC. I'm going to experiment with that item now.

Glad you're going to try it. And I answered your question without being a complete dong, and came up with another viable solution.

Wow, what a breath of fresh air! *Yes I tooted my own horn for not being a troll oh boy!*

lul. go PA 1v1... You go orchid I got sb... u silence me.. i invis... 2 second later i proc out of stealth and hit a crit. GG. 100 games and ur already 49% player, lol. By 1000 you should reach 38%.

I buy Orchid on PA only after I bought blink dagger

Orchid is probably only viable on clinkz. Any other hero it's a waste. 5k gold wasted. I could make basher & dominator and own ur naked pa with orchid.

Clinkz only? You're going too far. It is a very nice item on heroes that win by spamming spells. It's essentially a Bloodstone that hits your autoattack instead of your HP. It's great on Storm, QoP, Puck, and good on Skeleton King, Dragon Knight, Undying (these heroes especially like the increased attack speed as well!)
And no, you don't buy orchid in a 1v1 vs a PA because PA is not worth silencing. Ever.

"lul. go PA 1v1... You go orchid I got sb... u silence me.. i invis... 2 second later i proc out of stealth and hit a crit. GG. 100 games and ur already 49% player, lol. By 1000 you should reach 38%."

Can someone please translate? What does this even mean?

"Orchid is probably only viable on clinkz. Any other hero it's a waste. 5k gold wasted. I could make basher & dominator and own ur naked pa with orchid."

It's not 5K gold. Many other heroes get Orchid.

Who said anything about a PA with only an Orchid?

Don't you have to be 13 to post on Internet forums?

@Stinkoman
In my opinion, Orchid is quite a good item itself and that's what probably makes you feel it could be good on any character. It's like Guinsoo. Will PA profit from having it? Yes, greatly. Is it an efficient purchase? No, for reasons stated by many other people above.

Totally different on clinkz. Main difference is clinkz is an ideal ganker, PA is not. Same deal with slark, orchid is a pretty good item on him, you can spam Q with it, run away and regen all that hp and mana in a flash. It's even somewhat ok on bounty. It's basically for gankers and right click int heroes.

If you having mana issues on PA make arcane boots on PA. If you're having HP survivability issues make mek. Your naked Pa with orchid vs. My Pa with mek & arcane boots, lol.

^ Still doesn't have any reading comprehension skills.

@epsik-kun

I think MoC is probably the best way to go for a ganking build. It's cheap, offers mana regen, and makes it easier to burst down heroes in the early game.

ESP | Wink - she needs items to survive long enough. She only needs 1 dmg item. My dream 6 slots on her - Satanic, Butterfly, Assault, Abyssal, BKB. U will still crit for over 1.2k, don't need more.

You're better off going basher -> abyssal nine times out of ten. Adds 450 to crit and 190 hp + 2s stun and bashes.

If the game is dragging and my team needs to get pickoffs on an ember or storm or smth I might grab this or sheep if i'm ahead