General DiscussionPro tinker players pls help!

Play situational...

qweererajireajriejairj or w/e the fuck.. every game will make you lose your lane or lose the game, because of no ganking ability.
vice versa with no farming.
cookie cutter is 1-2-4-1 or 2-2-4-1 but doesnt excell at anything.

Yuels is a cheap alternative to hex,

aim for sub 9 mins bottle travels.. some time shortly after get soul ring.

Blink into tree lines for marches.

bloodstone hex build is legit too, or eblade dagon.

Why get points into your QW first if you are going to max your E first?

There are 2 builds for Tinker:

Zap zap: The ganker build you mentioned, level 1 Q, level 2 W, max W first, then max Q, then max E. Gank a lot, snowball hard. This is a risky build because you HAVE to gank since you wont have a strong farming tool (E) for a while.

Normal: The more commonly used build in competitive dota, level 1 E, level 2 Q, max E first (get rockets at 4), max W second, then max Q. Having E at level 1 lets you pop it at the first or second creepwave in mid so the enemy laner has to stay back and cannot farm without tanking the march damage. Maxing this allows you to farm much faster, dominate mid much harder, make ganking you extremely difficult, and lets you push waves exceedingly fast. You generally wont gank much with this build, your focus would be stacking camps and farming them or pushing lanes constantly

You also have a bad habit of getting dagon on tinker (i also see forcestaff in there?). As cool as it looks in those youtube videos, dagon ethereal on tinker is a troll/pubstomp item build. This build does nothing but focus 1 target at a time while you pray to god nobody with magic spells targets you while you are ethereal.

A proper item build on tinker would be:
bottle > soul ring > bots > blink > hex > shivas > bloodstone

Ill tell you why these items are so good.

Bottle: Mana and HP regen to spam abilities in lane
Soul ring: Covers the cost of level 1 ulti, the reason you get it before bots is because it is an investment by allowing you to indefinitely spam your march+ulti to farm very fast
bots: i dont need to explain
Blink: Mobility when ganking as well as the ability to tp onto a lane, put march of the machines, and then blink into trees before ulting
Hex: infinite hex, mana regen, mana pool, stats
Shivas: mana, aoe passive debuff, powerful active which does aoe damage and slow, armor bonus
Bloodstone: combined with hex+shivas you will have almost infinite mana to spam hex+shivas+rockets+laser+ulti

for starters try max e and r once u got travel.
practise tinker by pushing.
ganking can also come by controlling ur march, control ur march well and u can control other skill as well.

Forcestaff is incredible on tinker btw Wink, --

blink ,force, hex, yuels , soulring, linkens
is seen by some people as a 6 slotted tinker, as it makes you stupidly illusive, and tbh, you can catch 95% of heros with that build.

however, its very tricky to use, more then 3-4 actives and if you are beginning, i'd stick to basics..
chain hexing whilst using soulring + your tinker spells.

Later on, maybe try going yuels before hex. lvl 2 re-arm will re-arm before your yuels wears off.. so its kinda simple.
blink, lazer rocket, yuels target.... Rearm.... Rince repeat.
You can also yuels shift-q your blink into a treeline, if shit gets hectic.
but well i rarely build it.

My favorite 6 slotted tinker build is either. but each to thier own

Travels, Blink, Bloodstone, hex, Shivas, linkens

or

Travels, Blink, Dagon 5, Eblade, Hex, linkens

^Dont get level 2 into ulti until you have hex because the mana cost is brutal early on and the only reason you want the shorter channel time is so you can infinite hex with it. Don't max ulti until you have hex+shivas+bloodstone or you will have SERIOUS mana issues.

how to turn tables with march controls:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/633693500

^Good job and all, but holy fuck, 0 tower damage?!

haha thats so disturbing

Dont go bottle->soul ring->travels, the soul ring slows down ur travels too much. Just go bottle->travels->soul ring->blink

Go force staff against clock work, etc.

Don't get rearm at lvl 6. Wait until you get your travels.

i always go soul ring-travel-bottle
rearm at lvl 6
works well

thanks for the advices :))

I get soulring before BoTs usually to work on my ancient stack since I usually can't stack it more than 4 times.

and the one game that I got a forcestaff was when I was against a clockwerk :3

I guess I'll try building into sheepstick after my blink. Sure, I've admired lots of pubstomping games by a EB dagon 5 tinker, but I see that it does take a while to get there.

any advices on starting items? I usually started with a mantle of intelligence because it gives +3 dmg(same as 3 branches) and would build into talisman and dagon with either my tango or 2 pooled tangoes.

Maybe 2/3 branches with tangoes would be better? Anyways thanks :)))

3 branch tango salve is pretty standard.
speeds up bottle by 3 creep kills..
- if you are 1-0-2 build, you'll get your bottle before 2 min rune, march wave and succure rune + full mana/hp

Depends completly who you lane against, Against a melee... may aswell bottle rush, as you wont have too much trouble last hitting.
vs a Qop or puck etc, every piece of damage counts, so stats are better off.
I wouldnt recommend going no salve to mid ever,
because if one pesky support roams, or that guy notices and plays smart, you'll get zoned out pretty quick.

well if you have soulring bottle travels by 9mins then you are sweet. but if you have a soulring before travels, and its like 7-8 mins.
then you are going to have a badd time.
I only get soulring first if a support stacked something, or i need to catch up because im ganked.

There is nothing wrong with EB dagon tinker, and is a legit build. however, its situational.
If they 5man, you are kinda wasted half your gold.

1v1 however, i've killed 6 slotted Hard carrys, just eblade dagon 5'ing. where with a sheep i wouldn't of had the damage at all.

Tbh, i'd practice the yuels build because 2.7k is abit more achievable then 5.4k if you are still learning.

I personally don't skill re-arm at 6, only when i get my travs, and most games will go 2-2-4,
simply because it still has enough harass to zone them out.
and you can still farm stacks with lvl 3march by the time your travels come into play.

This is a pretty simple way of putting it
lvl 1 rearm = @ travel timing
lvl 2 rearm = 800mana pool
lvl 3 rearm = 1700 mana pool

max qw gank ez doublekill if you re a good last hitter you will get 12 min travel no ancient stacking

If you go zap zap build you max laser not rocket, still your item build is the same ( bottle travels soul ring blink )

If the enemy heroes are hard to gank or have a lot of hp dont go for the gank build just max E and farm a lot ( and dont let the enemy push )

The thing you need to have in mind while playing march of the machine tinker is farming a LOT, even if you go for the march build you can still get dagon, you just need to think if your team is going to fight soon and if you can get in close range to use dagon, if you cant get in close range ( if they have a lot of stuns etc ) get hex, or if they have heroes like storm weaver (mobile heroes ).

Again getting hex is a lot of money so if you think you can do more with a early dagon get dagon, but there is nothing worst than getting dagon and not fighting.

Personally i dont like forcestaff i think blink is enough, but i guess against clock etc you can get it, personally i think if you get caught with forcestaff or not you are dead.

btw bkb is a good choice if you have eblade dagon 5, i never get it because i am lazy but is a good choice if you NEED to be in the middle of the fight, if you think about it shivas is not going to make you survive, you get shivas for more damage but the armor does nothing for you ( people is going to nuke you down ) remenber that you can bkb and etheral.

btw get your ulti lvl 2 as soon as you have all your others skill maxed, lvl 3 only with hex or 1700 mana pool.

"As cool as it looks in those youtube videos, dagon ethereal on tinker is a troll/pubstomp item build" its really not, insane single target damage is great if you can survive in the fights, and anyway the guy is asking for pubs and i can tell you that its easier to win with dagon than with hex in pubs.

Btw against 5 man push that you cant even get close get aghs, its great.

Watch RTZ's stream, while he does alot of stupid shit to entertain his stream but he maximizes his farm on tinker almost perfectly(he makes sure to farm the OTHER teams jungle WHILE farming his own). He is the only ACTIVE streamer that can pull off tinker that well imo

^true, he is really effective farmer

Tinker consumes so much mana, that Bloodstone must be in high priority. Blink before hex is wasted 2k gold.

^ so how you gonna push without blink

blink helps you farm more effectively(less risk) going straight into a sheep is much more risky because the other team has a much easier time catching you(also u can rearm blink dagger and blink while in combat)

do you guys think aghs is good on tinker? When should i make it after blink or after blink hex ?

Don't get aghs ever especially when you can get Dagon, Ethreal, etc etc etc aghs is bad

"Tinker consumes so much mana, that Bloodstone must be in high priority. Blink before hex is wasted 2k gold."

Are you high ?

btw aghs is situational i think, i am not sure about aghs but i think if the enemy team has so much team fight potential silences and shit in a way that you cant even get close to use hex aghs seems like a good idea. Against a team of pushers aghs can be better than hex ( for example if you are really ahead but your team is poor as fuck, hex is not going to do anything because you dont have the damage to kill anyone )

I don't like Aghs on Tinker at all. I tried it in a few inhouses, it was very meh because by the time you have it (for sure after hex, sometimes after shivas), the enemy team will have 1 or 2 bkbs, which pretty much makes the quad rockets worthless, and the increased laser range isnt that important.

Also, you should always max rockets before laser because rockets hits 2 people and laser only hits one. Also rockets has 0.1 cast point and much longer range.

As for damage:
Rockets hits for 325 at level 4, add in magic resistance it becomes 312 magic damage to 2 people, which is 624 total damage. Laser hits for 320 no matter what. I don't think 8 damage to a single target is worth the increased cast time, lower number of targets, and smaller range. I generally only use level 1 laser for defensive purposes.

325 x 0.75 = 243.75 not 312.

still, max rockets over laser because chances are, when counter-pushing you're going to be using rockets much more frequently than laser, so the extra damage adds up every time you cast it.

aghs helps slowly siege when you can hit more people with it, but if you want a sieging item, what I saw EternalEnvy do in a competitive game is get Bloodstone, and use the extra mana to spam march so that the enemy can't contest you taking tower/rax/roshan, and March's damage is universal, whereas Rocket's is magical (so March isn't blocked by BKB)

this game here is the one I'm talking about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3khTG-03zC4
go to 45:01 for top rax
50:50 for roshan
51:50 for mid rax

Sorry im bad at math :$

The thing is if you are going for the laser rocket build you want to actually kill people even solo, against one target laser is way better than rocket, if you need to stop pushes why going for the laser rocket build anyway ?.

When i go for the march build i do max rocket first, but again if going Q-W you want the damage to solo kill someone.

btw i think aghs on tinker should make his laser like lion ulti with aghs ! In that case he would be way better against pushes.

its not QW vs WE, it's WE vs QE. i.e. 4-1-4 vs 1-4-4 for example.

sometimes I go 2-2-3 instead so I've got a mix of everything.

Well we were talking about the laser rocket build too ( Q-W ), i never go QE ( only WE and sometimes QW )

"Zap zap: The ganker build you mentioned, level 1 Q, level 2 W, max W first, then max Q, then max E. Gank a lot, snowball hard. This is a risky build because you HAVE to gank since you wont have a strong farming tool (E) for a while."

That its what i dont agree, if you go for the snowball build you max laser first for the insane single target damage, if you go for the normal build you max rocket.