Putting the non-constructive Saoulfou aside (with his ego on perhaps how his comment is most USEFUL, in a Sven thread where we are obviously going to discuss Sven's potential).
@吳能為力, I will simply state why I feel my build is great for a position 1 man fight carry, that you would not want MOM at the end. *Your picture using devilisk, which is what I usually do, captures a lot of what i meant actually *
First, MOM only gives you 200 more DPS at the end of the build, between 1442 and 1642. This amount is minor as a result of the huge damage boost you get from Satanic. However, it is only with Satanic that you can manfight and almost certainly beat carries such as juggernaut, spectre, bristleback and even troll (troll is more luck based). More importantly, you hit much harder per hit. Many times in Dota I experience myself only being able to generate one or two more hits no matter how fast I hit, these damage matters.
-> One example, I frequently beat Jugg in the previous patch (where its considered OP), even 1v1, and eating his full ultimate alone with warycry with about 30-40% HP remaining, then proceed to assrape him and leech back full HP with satanic. You will most certainly die with MOM, especially when Jug manages to get an abysmal blade.
Secondly, the effects of Satanic for your damage boost is permanent. MOM only allows you to have stronger DPS in the first half of your ultimate. Many times I encounter myself being euled, then blinked away, force staffed etc.. With Satanic this had not been much of a problem late game.
Lastly, if you feel your farm had been very fast with MOM at the start, then perhaps you may acquire even faster farm than me using stacks of ancients with HOD. I have been playing MOM+blink for my past like 900 games. I switched to helm only in the past 100+ games. The result was phenomenal for me, regardless of how you wish to argue it. My MMR went from 5K to 5.5K straight before hovering to 5.4K today.
Here's why: Sven is the only hero that can clear 4-5 stacks of ancient within 30seconds at 10 min. I acquire about 1.3~1.6K gold from that stack easily. Sure you can get supports to do so, but to do it every minute without fail, it is better to rely on yourself to stack, plus your supports get to free up space to do other things, maybe even stack jungle for you. At 15MIN, I have killed about 7-9ancient stacks (two times of large stack). I often get my free SNY at that time, plus almost a BKB if my farm was well. My winning games frequently hit 800-900 GPM. I have never hit this number so frequently without this build, playing solo.
Now for the most important bad point, which is why this is for a position 1 role: You need space to farm for this build. Its about safety and stability here. Otherwise You can always go cost-efficient with MOM armlet, which is actually very risky since you die like a dog when you're caught (this is why i prefer MOM blink as position 2).
This is going to be my last post for this thread, so I hope you will just read it and consider my points. Please do not start to flame me because I will feel awkward, but you will not get any reply anyway. If you have issues with this build, simply point out how its bad and perhaps others can constructively decide whether it's worth trying something new other than the same old risky Sven build.
This is the best thread on dotabuff I've read in a while, actual examples and arguments about actual builds. It's anything but a dick size contest, it's well thought out discussion on the merits of certain items. It's exactly what we should be discussing.
I had a horrible, horrible match and am not exactly sure where things went wrong.
We were absolutely rolling safe lane. My supports zoned out, got us kills, pulled perfectly. I had mom and armlet early and we had all t1s down and enemy was reeling. Based on their team I stupidly rushed heart over blink. I figured wk and jug will man fight me and for the rest we have a shit load of disables. Well my team started diving and dying, then I joined them, then we all just got kited to hell and back by DP. My awesome supports suddenly kept missing all their stuns and silences and since I didn't rush blink or bkb I kept dying to stupid blade mail wk or getting kited. We also kept splitting up to push and getting 2v5'd, 1v5'd, 3v5'd.
What should I have done different? Just kept farming to finish heart, then get blink? Or rush blink then bkb? Felt awful losing this one with how good our early farm was.
shoulda rushed dagger imo, just because sven without dagger is really like a slow truck and everyone can avoid it.
blink is the ultimate killing tool early game on him, since you already had armlet and mom.
ulti>mom>armlet>blink>stun and bam whoever was there is dead. and after some easy kills, a fast bkb, or if it would have been pretty easy to kill them and not get stunned/silenced, just heart.
I've never tried 1/3/1 before because "hurr why max cleave early it pushes the lane" but it did its job very well in this game. Don't think I would have been able to dig myself out of the hole without the farm that resulted from 65% cleave at level 7.
Sigh maybe sven isnt my hero. Look at this shit http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1261667695 4 blinks on enemy team. 3 bkbs. Impossible to lock anyone down and rest of team sucked so I couldn't win this for us. I made some bad moves but think if I was playing medusa or sniper we'd have won.
Agree with @Timberwolf, First time in I dont know how long Ive seen a thread where two very good players had an argument while both giving really valid points and stats to back them up. I'm nowhere near their level but I do like the hero in certain situations and have always just gone MoM, blink build with decent enough success.
I like the idea of the HoD build into Satanic and can see its merits, I probably would have built MoM on Sven till the end of time if I hadnt read this thread. Next game I will try the HoD and see which I prefer as I do generally play Sven as a 1. I still see the burst potential and sheer speed of farm from MoM builds but think trying a different build is worth a look.
Thanks to both for Well thought out points and opinions.
I think I've found a happy medium for me. I have only done it twice but I like the feel of dominator more, however to keep up farm and mid game fight I still go armlet. So my new build to try is treads, bassy, dominator to start stacking, armlet, blink. It also transitions into a satanic so easily so I can sell bassy for bkb and then buy satanic without having to dump another core item for heart/dmg item or being forced into boots of travel at that point.
Also when the ancient stacks work they really work well! I got a four stack twice in one game and it's a huge boost to farm. For some reason stacking on dire though is way harder for me. So I might do this build more often on radiant and stick to mom on dire. not sure.
i support zenoth. i tried mom build, blink build and mom+blink build on several carries and the gpm are actually increased
but zenoth, can u tell me how to properly use mom and blink to farm fast? i can just blink camp - camp or camp-lane after clear a creep camp and press mom all the time to reduce hitting and walking time
Just to end it really quick, MoM + Blink wins hands down, its not really a debate here.
Blink lets you cut through paths and move more quickly than an SnY does. Maybe if you weren't allowed to use teleports that movement speed would be more useful but generally SnY is more useful for not getting kited instead of being used to farm faster.
MoM just lets you cut down creeps faster and that movement speed it provides lets you run around a lot more. The only advantage HotD has over it is the ability to stack ancients but with efficient farming routes there shouldn't be a problem. Stacking ancients as you blink from top lane to mid or btm to mid after farming. Or simply asking a support to help stack. If your entire farm is centralized over ancients only, then that there is a problem since Sven should be powerfarming the lane creeps and jungle as well.
BESIDES, you two have entirely different playstyles. CY, you don't find Zenoth's build good because of the way you play yours and vice versa. Zenoth's build isn't the 'strongest' 6 slotted build out there, its a build that lets him get there the fastest. If a player were to get their items 10 minutes after his does, its a fucking shite build I tell you. But thats not the point, having armlet, mom, treads and heart at the 25 minute mark makes you tanky AND bursty as hell.
However, he does it in a 5 stack game most of the time I believe, those timings are nigh impossible with solo crowds especially since he'll get 4k teammates that are dying all over when he's trying to farm. Him doing so also nullifies the benefits of HotD since he can just get people to stack for him.
I'm not joining either side on this debate, I'm merely explaining to you his buiild and how its meaningless for you two to argue.
Будь ласка, увійдіть до системи для написання коментарів.
Putting the non-constructive Saoulfou aside (with his ego on perhaps how his comment is most USEFUL, in a Sven thread where we are obviously going to discuss Sven's potential).
@吳能為力, I will simply state why I feel my build is great for a position 1 man fight carry, that you would not want MOM at the end. *Your picture using devilisk, which is what I usually do, captures a lot of what i meant actually *
First, MOM only gives you 200 more DPS at the end of the build, between 1442 and 1642. This amount is minor as a result of the huge damage boost you get from Satanic. However, it is only with Satanic that you can manfight and almost certainly beat carries such as juggernaut, spectre, bristleback and even troll (troll is more luck based). More importantly, you hit much harder per hit. Many times in Dota I experience myself only being able to generate one or two more hits no matter how fast I hit, these damage matters.
-> One example, I frequently beat Jugg in the previous patch (where its considered OP), even 1v1, and eating his full ultimate alone with warycry with about 30-40% HP remaining, then proceed to assrape him and leech back full HP with satanic. You will most certainly die with MOM, especially when Jug manages to get an abysmal blade.
Secondly, the effects of Satanic for your damage boost is permanent. MOM only allows you to have stronger DPS in the first half of your ultimate. Many times I encounter myself being euled, then blinked away, force staffed etc.. With Satanic this had not been much of a problem late game.
Lastly, if you feel your farm had been very fast with MOM at the start, then perhaps you may acquire even faster farm than me using stacks of ancients with HOD. I have been playing MOM+blink for my past like 900 games. I switched to helm only in the past 100+ games. The result was phenomenal for me, regardless of how you wish to argue it. My MMR went from 5K to 5.5K straight before hovering to 5.4K today.
Here's why: Sven is the only hero that can clear 4-5 stacks of ancient within 30seconds at 10 min. I acquire about 1.3~1.6K gold from that stack easily. Sure you can get supports to do so, but to do it every minute without fail, it is better to rely on yourself to stack, plus your supports get to free up space to do other things, maybe even stack jungle for you. At 15MIN, I have killed about 7-9ancient stacks (two times of large stack). I often get my free SNY at that time, plus almost a BKB if my farm was well. My winning games frequently hit 800-900 GPM. I have never hit this number so frequently without this build, playing solo.
Now for the most important bad point, which is why this is for a position 1 role: You need space to farm for this build. Its about safety and stability here. Otherwise You can always go cost-efficient with MOM armlet, which is actually very risky since you die like a dog when you're caught (this is why i prefer MOM blink as position 2).
This is going to be my last post for this thread, so I hope you will just read it and consider my points. Please do not start to flame me because I will feel awkward, but you will not get any reply anyway. If you have issues with this build, simply point out how its bad and perhaps others can constructively decide whether it's worth trying something new other than the same old risky Sven build.
You guys are bad anyway xd
Don't argue with chineese name guy, you will lose.
chinese name man guy dude, i like this
This is the best thread on dotabuff I've read in a while, actual examples and arguments about actual builds. It's anything but a dick size contest, it's well thought out discussion on the merits of certain items. It's exactly what we should be discussing.
I had a horrible, horrible match and am not exactly sure where things went wrong.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1255330805
We were absolutely rolling safe lane. My supports zoned out, got us kills, pulled perfectly. I had mom and armlet early and we had all t1s down and enemy was reeling. Based on their team I stupidly rushed heart over blink. I figured wk and jug will man fight me and for the rest we have a shit load of disables. Well my team started diving and dying, then I joined them, then we all just got kited to hell and back by DP. My awesome supports suddenly kept missing all their stuns and silences and since I didn't rush blink or bkb I kept dying to stupid blade mail wk or getting kited. We also kept splitting up to push and getting 2v5'd, 1v5'd, 3v5'd.
What should I have done different? Just kept farming to finish heart, then get blink? Or rush blink then bkb? Felt awful losing this one with how good our early farm was.
shoulda rushed dagger imo, just because sven without dagger is really like a slow truck and everyone can avoid it.
blink is the ultimate killing tool early game on him, since you already had armlet and mom.
ulti>mom>armlet>blink>stun and bam whoever was there is dead. and after some easy kills, a fast bkb, or if it would have been pretty easy to kill them and not get stunned/silenced, just heart.
Dick measuring contest Kreygasm
Edit: Oh so its not one actually, oh well next time i guess :(
No, don't get any of those silly items.. Go all levels in stats until you can get your ulti 2 times, then put your levels in that and rush skaadi
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1260709406
I've never tried 1/3/1 before because "hurr why max cleave early it pushes the lane" but it did its job very well in this game. Don't think I would have been able to dig myself out of the hole without the farm that resulted from 65% cleave at level 7.
Thanks Zenoth!
what is the best sven set is it the fear one or the new bloom 2015 golden goat one
I prefer mix and match. http://a.pomf.se/srqdom.webm
But Flameguard set (not commander) is the best ever imo.
Sigh maybe sven isnt my hero. Look at this shit http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1261667695 4 blinks on enemy team. 3 bkbs. Impossible to lock anyone down and rest of team sucked so I couldn't win this for us. I made some bad moves but think if I was playing medusa or sniper we'd have won.
Agree with @Timberwolf, First time in I dont know how long Ive seen a thread where two very good players had an argument while both giving really valid points and stats to back them up. I'm nowhere near their level but I do like the hero in certain situations and have always just gone MoM, blink build with decent enough success.
I like the idea of the HoD build into Satanic and can see its merits, I probably would have built MoM on Sven till the end of time if I hadnt read this thread. Next game I will try the HoD and see which I prefer as I do generally play Sven as a 1. I still see the burst potential and sheer speed of farm from MoM builds but think trying a different build is worth a look.
Thanks to both for Well thought out points and opinions.
I think I've found a happy medium for me. I have only done it twice but I like the feel of dominator more, however to keep up farm and mid game fight I still go armlet. So my new build to try is treads, bassy, dominator to start stacking, armlet, blink. It also transitions into a satanic so easily so I can sell bassy for bkb and then buy satanic without having to dump another core item for heart/dmg item or being forced into boots of travel at that point.
Also when the ancient stacks work they really work well! I got a four stack twice in one game and it's a huge boost to farm. For some reason stacking on dire though is way harder for me. So I might do this build more often on radiant and stick to mom on dire. not sure.
i support zenoth. i tried mom build, blink build and mom+blink build on several carries and the gpm are actually increased
but zenoth, can u tell me how to properly use mom and blink to farm fast? i can just blink camp - camp or camp-lane after clear a creep camp and press mom all the time to reduce hitting and walking time
You guys have gone off-topic.
Just to end it really quick, MoM + Blink wins hands down, its not really a debate here.
Blink lets you cut through paths and move more quickly than an SnY does. Maybe if you weren't allowed to use teleports that movement speed would be more useful but generally SnY is more useful for not getting kited instead of being used to farm faster.
MoM just lets you cut down creeps faster and that movement speed it provides lets you run around a lot more. The only advantage HotD has over it is the ability to stack ancients but with efficient farming routes there shouldn't be a problem. Stacking ancients as you blink from top lane to mid or btm to mid after farming. Or simply asking a support to help stack. If your entire farm is centralized over ancients only, then that there is a problem since Sven should be powerfarming the lane creeps and jungle as well.
BESIDES, you two have entirely different playstyles. CY, you don't find Zenoth's build good because of the way you play yours and vice versa. Zenoth's build isn't the 'strongest' 6 slotted build out there, its a build that lets him get there the fastest. If a player were to get their items 10 minutes after his does, its a fucking shite build I tell you. But thats not the point, having armlet, mom, treads and heart at the 25 minute mark makes you tanky AND bursty as hell.
However, he does it in a 5 stack game most of the time I believe, those timings are nigh impossible with solo crowds especially since he'll get 4k teammates that are dying all over when he's trying to farm. Him doing so also nullifies the benefits of HotD since he can just get people to stack for him.
I'm not joining either side on this debate, I'm merely explaining to you his buiild and how its meaningless for you two to argue.