General DiscussionHow to Sf vs Viper?

1. Get good block
2. The Viper you face is a fucking retard, so just triple raze him if he comes to you.

I wanna play Sf but game just hard http://www.dotabuff.com/players/134203835/matches?date=&hero=shadow-fiend&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&faction=&duration=

triple raze with lvl 2 raze ? He anyway kills me with his 1 lvl passive and 2 lvl on 1 spell

arent you supposed to get raze lvl 1 to rush a bottle then use it to spam razes for souls or something? its what rtz does....

Doesn`t matter he run with boots at tower and kills me

you just dont play him

Viper is one of the best harassers mid lane. But then after that he's a mehhh semi-carry

I already knew that high skill brother I need some real advice for this matchup not that what everyone knows lol

When sf is lvl 3, viper lose, if sf is decent.

So good block, ensure few harrass of viper pre lvl 3, thus you basically won the lane at this point.

That's an interesting matchup though, the highest the level (of the player's skill ofc), the more viper get raped.
And under a certain level of play, viper will win all the time.

basically what matrice is trying to say is dont pick sf if u have trouble vs viper, it means ur shit and dont have the capacity to play such hero.

is necro start or raze start preferable in this mu?

do good creep block

manipulate creep agro to keep creeps on ur highround and make viper come into ur highround if he wants to do someting or he has to harass with 25% miss chance

once ur lvl 5 just raze the creepwaves and viper cant push it back anymore

inbetween collect runes stack jungle and kill jungle once razes off cooldown

once lane pushed back in comeback double razes and back to jungle rinse and repeat until u get ur items/good rune then start ganking and splitpushing

before viper gets lvl 6 send out tp scroll if u get ultied just tp out

or just dont fucking play it like i said.

why you got to turn matrice's advice in toxic sludge.

He is one of the few good posters here.

ty kitrak

its dependable on playstyle

some people arent comfortable getting souls on lvl 1 sf

so they just get branches and razes get couple lasthits with razes then buy bottle and keep razing afterwards

u usualy have to sell wraith band anyway to get slots for other items so itemising to rush botlte is isn't bad

personaly i would go necromancery 99.9% of the due having alot of practice with sf lasthiting

Why are you letting him dive you at tower?

??

If he can dive AND kill you without dying then you were probably halfway dead before he begun diving in the first place. You didn't control the creep wave well. It should be easy to raze farm/harass if he sticks close to the wave in his attempt to harass you. Besides, can't you stack jungle and be patient till level 3/5?? You out carry him and its easy to flash farm what gold you missed in the first few waves.

And please don't get egoistical just because you're 5k lol. You talk down to high skill players who try to give you advice but when 6k players like dd tells you stuff you make it sound like its useless advice.

I m bad with Sf that`s why I m learning him and want to play him better, simply tryharding and getting mmr with only troll won`t learn you anything. Thats why I m like 5100 last 2-3 days at like 50% win because I m experimenting an learning. Is better to get first boots after wraith band vs Viper or botle? I don`t know maybe I had bad laning control but he had boots and I had botle or still no botle can`t remember he lvl 3 or 4 and dive me tower and kill.

i think you need bottle when ure 3 and everytime he comes to harass you need 2x raze
no im not a normal skill player.

Please watch the replay and see how I died at lvl 3 at tower ok? And explain

This last game 0-9-2 check fb.

u need to use raze a lot. you can last hit with it so he cant stop you from picking up souls/gold. if you have to trade right clicks with him you can hit him with a raze (or 2) and win the trade. I really don't see how he was able to tower dive you at lvl 3/4 with just boots and kill you, unless you had eaten a ton of harass, panicked and didn't try to turn on him, or missed your razes when you did try to turn, what ever the case just watch the replay and don't make that mistake again. personally I would go bottle, since you shouldn't be getting killed flat out by a viper early on, but he might be able to harass you down, also it lets you spam raze which is how you win the lane and you have better rune control then him so refilling it shouldn't be an issue.

edit; some one beat me to it feel free to ignore.

u didnt block properly the 1st wave and u dont bother to aggro pull
1:07 you should have reblock but potm was in your jungle so w/e
when he dives you he has 15/9 boots 2 wb and u are 5/0 nothing much you can do by then except you could have probably went into the tree holes on the left.

You missed the block entirely.

Had you done it right, you might've gotten 3-4 cs from the first wave. Instead after missing a free deny before he reached the wave, you let him pull aggro giving him complete control over the first wave and basically from that point everything was downhill.

You were way too conservative with your mana in a losing lane. Saving it wouldve accomplished nothing. Several times where you could've opted to raze and get CS at levels 2/3, you tried to use your auto attack which was still much lower than Viper's not including his passive.

You had 5 CS and 0 denies at 2:40, level 3. It was also like what I predicted earlier, when Viper started diving you (also at 2:40) were already at half hp from being caught out of position. But the thing is, Viper escaped after diving with 345 hp. Had you double razed after passing the pink tree and fought under tower, it would've at least been a trade.

You were unfortunate that the Viper started with a first blood but it was also due to your starting play that the lane became so unbearable. You were 5/0 cs when Viper was 15/9. Even if he was zoning you, razes shouldve gotten you much more than that. Anything after that, well you were two levels down and Prophet was breathing down your ass so it was gg.

im watchin replay atm, and dude, you did everything wrong since min 0.
you were radiant, you didnt even go for rtz block, you missed yor block from t2 because you watched viper get fb, and you missed 1 cs and 1 deny while he wasnt even in lane, really ez cs.
and also you miss a lot of uncontested by viper cs, and this is only min 2, ill watch and reply later.
idk maybe its like your first couple of games, but looks like you are not used to the animation and positioning with sf at all.

at min 1 51 viper was lvl 3 and half, you were 2 and half, viper 13 9 you 2 0 cs.
and when he dived you at min 3, instead of 1 cs you could raze him 1-2 times and potentially even kill him he got hit by tower like 5 times, cuz furion was retraded and tp very far back.

he hit you 3 times before you started to move back thats one of the reasons you died.

and you went woods with lvl 3, and when at min 6 clock hooked viper, you coulda gotten the killing spree off of viper with your long ranged raze, but you missed it, very hard.

its all downhill from here, even tho clock landed some hooks, and jugg got some kills you gave up since you died in mid, and kept spamming good game

a waifu a day keeps socie... I had 5/0 cs Because mirana was roaming mid I didn`t had ward I was scared of arow and only way to survive longer was to actually play passive :))) I couldn`t stack jungle because BS was farming the camp that I need to stack all the time. pengu Maybe I couldve had 3-4 cs more but won`t change anything as I said I was already scared of mirana and thats why I played so passive.

troyboi That`s some nice advices

http://9gag.com/gag/a4dEvj6
10/10

sf takes practice, and you decided to practice at ranked 5k mmr, not best decision)
play 10 min bot game, then 1-2 normal games and you learn basics of animation atack and raze animation.

gl bro

Just play more Shadow Fiend. There is no shortcat. Shadow Fiend is one of those heroes you are really god at or you really suck.

There's no inbetween. Since you're mehanical way better then me, I can't point-out why you lost mid to Viper, and I'd say it really doesnt matter.

Because good Shadow Fiend would never lose to a Viper. But in order to get good as Shadow Fiend, you need to play him, a lot.

There's no way you'll develop game-sense and understanding of how to react as SF if you don't play him often.