General DiscussionBiggest diffrence between 4k and 5k supports?

Im no 5k but at 4k its ridiculous how people dont know even how to properly double-pull, stack everytime you can and keep creep balance near so your carry can farm, really basic stuff, they just go ahead and harras the fuck out of the offlaner but still giving him xp at his tower, maybe its just my luck, but at 5k from what i've seen they got all these mechanics learned and know depending on your carry and the enemy offlaner, when to harras, when to pull, when to back off so they get lvl 6 faster, when to gank mid, etc.. decision making mostly.

Also certain supps are simply stronger in pubs/solo ranked, like silencer, warlock, etc the ones with game-changing ults, not the ones that are very situational and easily countered by disables/bkbs.

I watched this game last night. It's a great example of top level support play.
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1455777439

Download this replay. Watch to see how the Radiant Team supports manage a very difficult situation where their early game and teamfight is much weaker because of picks and turn it around.

There are only two types of supports at any MMR: those who shit talk about teammates from beginning of the match and those who actually try to do something for the team.

Their team fight and early game is much weaker.....yet has undying?

Undying has some teamfight, but he has no stuns. They are facing a SS, Chen, Pheonix, Sand King, Leshrac... and the only disables they have are Bane's nightmare and Fiends grip. Radiant does a fantastic job of kiting everyone around and giving ground slowly, strategically until LD can finish his radiance.

If you watch the replay you will see how easily tombstone does down to 4 centaurs.

Thanks relentless I will def. take a look at this. Double pulling and such is basic but I sometimes avoid it so that my carry donest have directly under tower and so miss cs.

In my experience a 5k MMR carry can usually cs under tower - a 6k definitely has no trouble with it. Denying the experience to the offlaners, gaining the xp and gold from the camps yourself - those are the priorities in many situations. Don't become underleveled by standing in the lane too much. So I think the decision to pull or not really depends first on whether or not you can kill the offlaner. If they are a weaker offlane hero, like Tidehunter - who could be completely zoned out and trapped at level 1 for a long time, then it's better to deny them all xp instead of pulling. You can still stack camps and pull them later. But if its a hero that is extremely hard to zone out - like a wind runner, then you may as well pull because you won't be able to keep WR from leveling anyway.

Now if its an offensive dual lane or certainly an offensive tri-lane you need to stay and harass and protect or the carry won't be able to cs. Anytime the carry is at risk of having to use an escape move when he gets close enough to lasthit - then you need to be in the lane. If the offlane is unable to contest your carry's farm, then you should focus on rune control and ganking mid. That's more valuable to the team than pulling. You can stack camps as you roam to make up the gold later. Well, this sort of contradicts what I said at first... the difference is - it depends on your overall strat and the role of your hero. Are you going to try for an early mech and early push/teamfight? Then you need to stack and pull. Are you going to try to snowball on ganks? Then rune control and winning mid is more important.

my supports that game were both 7k LoL

The problem isn't the cs under tower it's just the support not pulling a stacked or double pull. Which causes the lane to be pushed next wave with extra creeps.

No, that only happens if you screw it up. You can entirely wipe out the creep wave behind it and re- balance without the wave pushing. Sometimes you need to do a half-wave pull, but it doesn't have to push back out. If you time it right you can get two or three creeps to pull and leave one or two in the lane to hold the wave where you want it.

Keep in mind that you can always deny creeps while jungling and/or pull to another camp. That way you eliminate the extra creeps and don't push the wave when you don't want to... or if there is a chance to push the tower you can save up a wave of creeps and hit the tower with a double wave when the siege comes.

I might check out that match but dire has zero right click. All you have to do is survive for 30 mins and gg. Doesn't look that impressive.

This is a 6k MMR to 7k MMR game. When people have the skill to use heroes having stuns is much more powerful than having higher attack damage.

Rax were down at 20 minutes. If merely 5k MMR players had been on Radiant, I have no doubt they would have collapsed and been overrun by the push.

Relentless that was a pretty unfair game though, Supercell, beesa, murs vs 5ks.

Sure, I know they were better. I just think its worth watching to see what can be done. I particularly like how they coordinated defensive items to prevent any one hero from being focused down in fights. Items like Fstaff, glimmer, linkens, lotus have the potential to be amazing. This game at times looks more like a World of Warcraft fight than a typical dota game. I suspect that we will see a lot more of this style of play at TI5.