![[Lk].Zano](https://steamcdn-a.akamaihd.net/steamcommunity/public/images/avatars/b9/b98e01ce6ef4a5e926a44cdd1564d0e8e5fbfa36_full.jpg "[Lk].Zano")
And the two times I play him since his buffs, my friends decide to dced or play worse than a dced. Friendship please! :(
so lich is now a nightmare for offlaners? I never payed attention to him cus everytime i hate ice dudes/gal
He was always annoying in lane and that's kind of what he does. He really doesn't do much later into the game.
Well, successfully playing Lich means that an enemy core will not be able to do much in the late game either. Or at least the mid to late game, where Lich's cores will hopefully win the game then.
I love this hero.
He has great lane presence early on because of his skills, i.e perfect for babysitting little hatchling cores like slark.
Maybe he isnt tier 1 support because of how his damage output potentially falls off late game or his lack of lockdown, but he can certainly carry the ball early to mid game in creating space. His damage output during those phases of the game is great in ganks and team fights.
And @Sam: he's hardly weak late game with a well timed ult, a veil and some other lockdown to set targets in place, like dark seer, earthshaker, or tide.
idk how people play this hero honestly such a boring shit. i prefer playing bs woods or dual mid as treant with qb and lose the game rather than play that
Lich definitely is boring, especially when you use his ult, and get little to NO bounces, it's so anti climactic.
He falls off so badly late game. possibly the worst late game hero? has no ability to clear creeps, nothing that scales percentage-wise. bkb ruins his ult and his other spells become somewhat irrelevent.
his aghs ulti is good for slowing down megacreeps i guess and is one of the funniest spells to force meepo to make a nice star pattern but that's about it.
low skill floor, low skill cap hero - awesome for noobs to learn the game imo.
he's annoying to play against, but boring to play as. With the addition of glimmer cape to utility items it becomes easier to stop his ult bounces too when splitting up. His armour buff is still pretty strong late game though.
i put him in the same boat as viper, Wins you the lane, once your laning phase is over.. you are a lich, then what
Lich is actually a lane snowball hero - when you add up all the sacrifice you can cast during the laning phase, you'll greatly outlevel their carries, and your carry will get a lot more exp, which usually means you can be very, very aggressive. The whole point is to win the lane so hard that you do not really care about the lategame, just push your own lane early, then go help other lanes since you'll be a nice level at that point.
Greal lane support for PL particularly. Makes PL lvl6 when opponent carry is quite possible lvl5 or even lvl4. Makes a huge difference.
BTW, I don't think Lich sucks at late-game. A good Aghs ulti can outrun 5-6 second BKBs. Ice Armor grants 9 armor and a reversed Skadi slow, also can be casted on buildings which can negate Assault / Desolator reduces.
Sure, he's not great either. Possibly below average. But I don't think he's late-game presence is shitty.
He's not terrible lategame, it's just that you'll wish you had shadow shaman, winter wyvern, enigma or something similar, that can wreck the fight and win you the game. Also, lich is pretty fucked up with magnus/enigma, lategame you can end up with a two support teamwipe.
Seriously? I can't really think of any late-game situation where I would be wishing I was playing Lich rather than any other hero.
Awesome lane support though.
Horse: Yeah when playing lich having teammates like enigma or magnus can be a lot of game-rekting fun, or a complete DISASTAH.
For easier options to set up that chain frost for its many many bounces, Shaker and Tide get my vote ahead of Enigma and Magnus.
In my view, the latter two have a higher skill cap in terms of properly landing their respective ults (among other things).
Anyway it's probably best not to have a lineup which is too dependent on long cd ults, unless your team can consistently disengage from unfavorable team fights (usually when key ults are on cd).
9 armor such a weak late game spell. It also doesn't scale Kappa. Ulti going through BKB (stun) also very bad. Frost armor on buliding also terrible. Very weak hero, delete.
He is awesome late game with aghs in 3k. Noobs don't know how to disperse, you can team wipe people. Plus his armor is amazing all game. It's like free shivas on everyone.
I didn't say he was useless and I'm not sure why you want to pretend he is a late-game hero.
9 armor and slow buff and a bkb busting ministun on 40sec (think that's the cooldown haven't checked) is so underwhelming compared to what other supports offer late-game.
If he was great late game then he'd be broken based on his dominating early game.
Yeah very awesome with aghs.
Those unlimited bounces..
Thats why i love playing against undying in team fights.
He drops tombstone, the zombies start spawning on my teammates and the enemy heroes follow up thinking it's an ez rekt.
Zombies are spell immune but still count as targets in the chain frost target search radius, so they basically keep the chain frost boucing around in the fight :D
To be fair to rocket, lich's damage output does fall off noticeably if the enemy team uses pipe and also in situations where they arent sufficiently locked down and thus able to disengage temporarily to stop the chain frost bouncing.
In such scenarios, other supports like rubick, shaker, etc. probably could offer better options.
Ice armor is generally useful even in the late game, but frost blast not so much.
But one big thing he has going for him in the late game is his relatively low ult cd at level 3, 60 seconds compared to other supports: earthshaker (110s), witch doctor (80s), wyvern (90s), etc.
With that low cd, his team could potentially take or force team fights in the late game which another team depending on a longer cd ult for initiation might not be able to.
This is particularly important in close games where successful team fights often lead straight to taking the next objective (if the surviving team isnt brain-dead).
Just think "fuck my teammates" and build Dagons and he's suddenly fun to play. Alternatively, kill secure as much as you can.
^yeah im playing against lich 1on1 safelane atm and hes lvl 8 in 6 minutes
time to go afk holy shit
HAHA ogre falls off late, are you joking? You can two shot supports who don't have bkb with aghs later, you just wait out carries bkb and blow them the fuck up. Ogres amazing late game.
And lich doesn't bring as much to the table as which suports exactly? CM? They have like equal late game, CM still really powerful ult late but she's so squishy I think lich is better. Jakiro? Has attack speed slows like lich, and his ult is much easier to avoid, has a disable but pretty equal I think. Disruptor? If dis has aghs he is a great bkb buster, but without is his ult that much better than lichs? Just to name a few.
The three you named all have crowd control that can and regularly setup clutch plays. Again though, I've never been late game cm, Jakiro or disruptor and wished I was Lich.
if u manage to get solo killed by an ogre in late game u might as well kill urself cause earth doesnt need creatures like u
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1432956514
55 minutes match - enough for any carry to come online, especially with Bounty Hunter advantage.
I remeber this match clearly. Every teamfight started like this: Ogre sees PL, he blinks in, kills PL, we finish rest of enemy team. PL wasn't even bad, he played OK, but he died again and again every time Ogre was on him... (BTW all players in this match had about 4.5k-4.6k MMR) It was like a horror movie, I had no idea what the fuck is going on.
And this was back in 6.84. Now imagine what Ogre can do in 6.85?
u think ogre is a legit carry because he got carried by an invoker and a lina in a 4k pub and eventually got to do something himself ? XD XDXD
^I tell you what I saw. I don't know how to explain... This ogre was like Jason, but with a club. Imagine your worst nightmare and then imagine something even worse, at this point you getting close to what it was like.
Yeah he doesn't have stuns late, but set him up in a wombo combo and he's amazing. Run him with treant or tide for example, that ult will destroy teams. Or enigma.
Too late - dotabuff elitism meta taken over >.>
I think orge's flaw late game compared to the likes of disruptor, maiden, jak, is that as a disabler/nuker/initiator orge's skills are single target.
Granted he's got relatively low cd skills compared to those heroes, and can do amazing burst and lockdown if allowed to stay in the fight for long.
But that's the thing.
Since he's single target and if his team doesnt have some kind of aoe disable or doesnt execute it properly, he will get targetted and blown up quickly, unless he's snowballed enough to tank up (i.e with items like scepter, bloodstone, pipe, etc).
That's a big contrast to the skillsets of cm, disruptor, and jak, as their skills enable them to crowd control, like rocket said.
They can potentially zone out multiple heroes at the point of initiation, all the while disabling / nuking those heroes in the aoe radius. A well timed and well positioned initiation from those heroes can open up the space for thei teammates to follow up. Thats not something orge can do, as a single target hero.
Granted, orge's effectiveness compared to those heroes after initiation is debatable. That would depend on situational factors in-game.
Orge has better strength (hp) growth and armor compared to those 3 heroes so he's generally lasts longer in team fights, items (and other factors) notwithstanding.
@Rocket:
Lich isnt about crowd control, he's more like an aoe nuker with great lane presence, assuming his ult is executed properly in team fights and his other skills are well-utilised during the laning phase.
If you think crowd control heroes are better for the game situation, then pick those other heroes instead (or have teammates pick them).
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holy fuck this heroes broken
wins ur lane super hard
armor destroys 90% of the heroes in the meta
chain frost reasonably good teamfight spell, super good if ur in a teamfight comp with lockdown