General Discussionwhy manta on jug?

Synergizes well with split push I guess (especially since battlefuries are now extremely popular on Jugg)

You guess wrong I think.

It's nice because you can dodge shitloads of stuff with it, it's good because it'll debuff silence and it's also better item on him overall lategame (scales better) then sny.

He said in games with no threat of silence.

Also the scales better part is mostly what Pilot said, pushing. And dodging obv

Also the dodging yeah and debuff purges yeah

doesnt sound good enough to validate making it on him....dodging is split second and one time

can it debuff slardars ulti? even then im not really sold on making manta on him

sny isnt a late game item anyway...you always try to reuse it or just sell it

and its not like am where manta is so good with fighting because of the mana burn part...

sounds to me like a pro made it one time and everyones jumped on the band wagon

plus pushing? what are you going to get? one full wave is all those illusions are going to clear and those too of normal creeps

these arent nagas illusions or specs

"can it debuff slardars ulti? even then im not really sold on making manta on him"

last time i checked it can.

"sounds to me like a pro made it one time and everyones jumped on the band wagon"

Could be , tbh. Could not. Like, you get yasha to improve your farming speed, ms speed/etc, you know.

Then what can you go next? Either manta or Sny, not really other choice. I coinsider yasha into sny/manta kinda core on him, since madness is kinda past now.

Then again, I'm shit tier jugg, I can barely play this hero. I'm trying to get better with him, but i'm still years away from it, so this is just asumption.

And I'm pretty much sure it's not because of splitpush.

@ minglee, yeah, didn't read his post fully, tbh.

It's stilll good item, I think. Like, dodging that stun, debuffing a lot of stuff, etc. Dunno.

Also manta is great on a lot of stat based carries simply because illusions benefit the most from stats, so it will always definitely be an option.

@Doofy: What shreds is trying to say basically is that manta just has a lot more utility in general although SNY is still a pretty valid item choice especially if you're able to get it early enough.

@Doofy

"can it debuff slardars ulti? even then im not really sold on making manta on him"
not only that but can dispell almost all negative spells that dont block ur inventory such as orchid which is a wide spread item. And its way better than sny especially if u r playin from behind, that confusion time after u use manta even if it is for a split second helps extremly much to get a ult off or to deal some extra dmg.

"and its not like am where manta is so good with fighting because of the mana burn part..."
no they dont have the manaburn part but they inherit the crit from jugger and all the passive from butterfly/diffusal or any stats from items u get. The illusions of manta + another item aint that weak, and they will get even stronger the more items u get, so they scale pretty well. Usually ppl make sny coz its cheaper and its easier to build compared to manta, and has that maim bonus that helps alot especially when u have the advantage, but i would say manta is better in most of the cases.

Well if jugg shouldn't buy manta for just stats and illusions than I'm pretty sure nobody else should(except for those radiance fgs).

also multi-unit approach will help you against single target heroes like ursa, wk, clinkz.

Why not? you can split push a lot better with it, deal more dps in fights and dodge spells.

most people just mindlessly copy each other, so that should answer your question.

Also it helps with his omnislash, I think.

Like, if it's lower then 0.4 for attack speed, he'll be able to perform one aditional attack during omnislash.

I hope you get what I wanted to say.

umm what? arent the number of slashes during omnislash fixed? pretty sure that 0.4 second gap is irrespective of jugs att speed

^if your attack speed is higher than the time interval between slashes of omnislash, you will rightclick-attack in this period. thats the intuition behind the popularity of MoM build back then, btw.

It means that you actually attack between the slashes if you are fast enough.

To make an antimage with free crits and nuke ulti? Blink is also often build on him, literally anti-mage...

all your reasoning is spectacular but how come its' is not made on pa?

she's got a crit....she makes bf....she gets more items....she needs stats? additionally manta even gives you int which sny does not and pa has one of the lowest int gains if im not mistaken?

not split pushing required from pa? no need to dodge spells?

wow i thought you couldnt right click during omni? is this confirmed to be possible?

Why do people still think cleave works on illusions? Guys, IT DOES NOT, illusions have cleave graphics but NO ACTUAL CLEAVE.

Even if you don't think you'll be at threat of silences (poor enemy supports, no natural orchid holders, no silencing spells in general), you get a manta when you go for heavy stat build mainly, if you build to be tanky and stat heavy in general, manta's great, if you go something like butterfly satanic skadi treads etc, it also lets you farm more camps even if you already have a bfury.

Manta is generally not made on PA because she's a natural BKB carrier, she doesn't have spell based magical immunity like ls and jugg, and PA builds a ton of + damage which does not synergize with illusions.

For the last time, battlefury does not synergize with illusions at all, cleave just doesn't work, neither does + damage.

Some higher level player correct me if I'm wrong but

It's also a viable item, but BKB is also a core item for PA so she's not kited (so dispelling debuffs and dodging utility from manta is not really needed). Also you tend to stack more damage items than stat items which illusions do not benefit from.

And yes, it has always been confirmed to be possible which was also why madness was so good on him before

It's good because illusions have crit and also have the 1.4 BAT you have so they attack really fast. I especially like Manta-Diffusal build on him.

@Doofy

The reason its not made on pa is coz pa aint a stat carry, pa is raw dmg carry, meaning pa favors raw dmg instead of stat build such as manta/butterfly/skadi....pa goes mostly on basher/mkb/bkb/assault kind of build which scales better with her ultimate and compensates the amount for huge attackspeed with blinkstrike...since pa has mostly low amount of stats (compared to stat carriers such as jugger/moprh/dusa etc) she wont profit that much from illusions, and pa has to blink almost always inorder to jump from 1 place to another to kill targets which renders the illusions unable to follow, and her highest dmg comes from the blinkstrike attack speed which illusions wont inherit, thats why its not that usefull on her.

its almost exactly why clinkz doesnt get manta aswell...raw dmg which illusions wont inherit
and the strafe attack speed which is like pa blink strike

i dont get the difference between a stat builder and a damage builder....what do you build stats for then?

Most agi carries are stat based because on top of the attack speed and armor that agility items give, they also benefit by gaining damage for said items.

@doofy

let me make it simpler. Why do u build linkens/manta/butterfly on morphling....and u dont build mkb/crit/assault??
The reason is that the hero is build in a steroid type which he profits far more from stats than he does from raw dmg coz he has the shotgun which is based on his total agility. That same rule goes on PA...she needs raw dmg from mkb far more than she needs the stats from skadi or butterfly, coz her ultimate(which is the source of dmg) is directly connected ONLY to the ammount of dmg she has and no secondary stat, she compensates for the lack of attack speed with blink strike so her output dmg is rly high in the end.

Jugger on the other hand needs alot of attack speed to couple with his crit for high amount of dmg and extra attacks from ult.,....how can he get both???? from the stats build...u might say why wont he build assult cuirass and mkb....well why that, when he can get a butterfly for both dmg and attack speed...

Manta is 90% cases better than SnY because of how it scales. Believe it or not, you can farm more with a manta, just send illusions to lane/camp and see them in action. If you are a good player you can do some nice mind tricks with manta. SnY just gives you some extra ms, 16 dmg and 16 str, not a lot tbh...

As time goes by and you get more experience you will understand the power of active abilities on items and their importance.

It's 100% comfirmed that you can attack during omnislash. You just need to be fast enough(shred you tob its).

in late game i use manta to farm more or chip towers (when u have a lot of damage illus deal ok damage on towers).
its a good dispell and dodge (like if u get hooked u use manta and pudge wont ulti u, if doom starts casting ulti use manta to interrupt it, etxc)

Cause manta's icon looks cool in his inventory

Cuz 3 jug is better than 1

3>1 3<1 1+2>1 1<2+1

cus people over value manta and under value s&y

^
Sure thing mate. Let me know how you're going to win lategame with sny on him.

Going sny is fine, don't get me wrong,but manta does scale better into lategame on him by all means.

I am very big fan of SNY, but I really think manta is more suitable item on him.

SNY used to be good with madness into BKB maybe, I just love how sny/madness works together, gives you so many chanes to proc that slow from sange.

It's also good if you go drums/sny/basher on jugg, he's pretty much unkilable in my opinion that way, but then again, if you don't get it early and you don't finish game in some resonable time, you'll end up facing that fat antimage with abyysal/heart/manta and he'll rape you.

Or Slark. or Sven. Or whatever. I hope you're getting my point..

Jug isn't really a late game hero, he's a mid game destroyer. It's not like he is bad late but his best window is like 20-30 mins.

Sny is better for the maim, 6 more strength, more ms, cheaper, better buildup
You should get manta only when you need to dodge shit

Jugg is a monster late what are you talking about

He isn't bad late, but I feel he falls off. Not off a giant cliff like PA does, but he's not on the same level as other good late game heroes like slark, spectre, medusa, sven, ck.

You think Sven is a "lategame monster" but Jugg falls off?

It really depends on what you consider to be the most relevant thing lategame. Sven's cooldown dependant, can be kited, will die after a 5 second BKB wears off, enemy supports are going to have halberds and sheepsticks if they're no totally underfarmed, etc.

Jugg is pretty amazing lategame.

ok ok, he's also a very great mid game hero, one of the best. S&y quite good on him. It's a pretty minor difference though, to each his own.

well when i play jugg (very rarely) i like getting phase, drums, manta, diffusal, skadi,) and slowing, and mana draining the shit out of peeps

but the main reason, is scales, damage, speed & survivability

1.4 BAT, passive crit, temporary 100% attack uptime, percentage healing

"falls off late game"
4Head

4head

Here is my idea of em
sven-very relient on ulti and bkb to have any impact. Yet to countr him u kite him.

ck-scary af when he has his ulti up, plus the armor reduction and crits. Yet is countred by any aoe in the game.

medusa- u let the game go past 50min. U will lose no matter what. Ur only hope is to mana burn her.

Jugg-scary early-mid game. His ulti falls off late unless u get his att speed under .4. Overall he can fall off based on your build.

Spectr- Dafuc is this shit 55%+ winrate in 5k mmr game(look at dotabuff). The true bane of roaming supports and a pain in the @ss to kill. Warning do not feed her or it.