i invoke tornado and emp first in early game as quas level is low and tornado lift time isnt higher than emp charge time, if the tornado lift time is higher than emp charge time i usually cast emp first then tornado while having 3 quas ready so that you invoke coldsnap while targets are in the air and as the targets come down i cast coldsnap and free hit, and it takes a smaller amount of time before the emp explodes if you cast emp a few milliseconds earlier than tornado and also after you invoke coldsnap be sure to switch to 3 wex fast so that you can free hit faster.
i think basically everyone has tornado emp initially, and coldsnap is learnt after first spell is casted, and used right after the target "falls" to not let it escape emp
also on early levels tornado duration is too low, and u might want to use emp first and tornado after
thats what i see other players doing, at least
I get that for a guaranteed emp hit, you want emp -> tornado -> coldsnap, but eventually you want to save emp/tornado. When you have urn+phase and run across a lowlevel support, coldsnap+urn is often enough to kill them and then you have tornado-emp still as followup.
Also if the target doesn't have some special escape spell, you still get the emp hit, after tornado->emp->coldsnap, it's very hard to escape the emp with coldsnap.
Tornado-EMP invoked, if quas is lower than Level 3 you use emp first, then you cant reliable hit Tornado emp and follow it up with a coldsnap. Once you got orchid ghost walk coldsnap with WWW so you can insta invoke the emp mostly.
So, noone will answer my original question?
The problem with tornado-emp invoked is, that you rely on tornado for catch. If you are together with teammates thats not optimal, as they can't attack/cast while tornado, so coldsnap is a better catch in that situation.
Thats why I'm interested in the coldsnap-tornado case.
With Tornado-EMP the order doesn't matter, you'll cast EMP, if possible, first, then tornado, then invoke cs. Which of tornado-emp remains doesn't matter, as the cd is too long to matter in most cases.
But with Coldsnap-Tornado invoked, the order does matter as you have to either switch around the spells while the target is in the air, or have it in cs-torn order. And if you have tornado-coldsnap, you'll loose coldsnap on the next invoke, which you eventually could cast again in a fight.
So for this case I wanted to know what the arguments for tornado-coldsnap are, as I see it quite often in progames.
As you can swap spells without loosing cd, I see no reason to not swap it to coldsnap-tornado, for the named reasons.
Any ideas on that thought?
Also another drawback to tornado-emp invoked: if you want to cast emp first (for secured hit) you have to get a lot closer, which kiinda wastes the great range of tornado a bit.
Thats the beauty of invoker, every situation is different and needs a different approach. When you have Tornado and Coldsnap i'd rather have coldsnap on the first spot and Tornado on the second, so you can begin with Tornado, invoke the emp and then follow up with coldsnap.
Also once your around lvl 10 and got a point in exort Icewall might be a better follow up than coldsnap.
First thing you need to learn is every game is different.
Usually its All about the early game invoker. you cannot be swapping around spells to much its bad with big cd.
Dont try to overthink the combos and or orders its more about how you use them in the long run. (with your team)
A good tip is also to calculate how much damage you deal each lvl. (spells/reductions/mitigating effects) and so on.
Icewall is invokers best spell tho.
im more familiar with the feeling when u try to put a horizontal icewall in fron of you, but path finding fucks u up and u put a vertical one behind urself
I don't know if bumping this thread will do any good, but I can try.
To add an additional example of what I mean:
NaVi - [A] Manilla Major game 3 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=416XGbgBp2A
Up to about 10-15 min (when the bigger fights start and this is not an interesting question any more) Dendi always has tornado - coldsnap invoked to start anything.
I can only see advantages from coldsnap-tornado.
It doesn't consume cooldown to swap it around so my point is:
Dendi is one of the best players on Invoker so I guess there might be a reason for this order so I'm trying to find this reason.
Has anybody an idea why this order might be better.
And yes; I know every game is different, you have to think ahead and after you get a point in exort icewall might be a good followup and what not.
All this doesn't matter for this question, it's the same build, it's the same purpose.
Dendi one of the best invokers :,D They just showed his competitive winrate today 48.4%, so he's probably one of the worst professional invokers.
Now regarding your question: I think you really just gotta find out whats working for you, Invoker is a pretty complex hero (otherwise we wouldnt even have question like yours which go into quite detailed mechanics) and you really understand him better each time you play him. If coldsnap-Tornado seems to be logical to you go with that, otherwise just try the different invoking orders and find out whats working the best for you, because at the end of the day youre not Dendi, nor Miracle, nor w33, but yourself, nobody will be able to give you a definitve answer to your question tbh.
Yeah, ok, might not be toptier anymore, still in another league than most of us. (And still better than RTZ :D)
I know it's up to me but as those players a quite a lot better than a low 4k scrub like me there is probably a reason to this.
I want to get better on Invoker and that is eventually a small trick which has something to it that makes it better than my way.
It's for sure also a comfort thing, so I won't change my way easily, but if I can understand why it might be better, I want try it and it can help me improve.
So, no offense, but, while what you're saying is qute true, it doesn't help for my question.
I'd actually say Arteezys Invoker is better, but yeah it's kinda in-fashion to hate on Artour (also Navi is having success again while Secret, yeah lets leave that)...
And yeah, i realize that I probably cant help you, but others wont be able to aswell, simply because it's an individual thing, other solutions aren't necesarrily working for you.
How about QE invoker? Pros always have forge spirit and sun strike invoked pre-level 16 and agh's, sometimes I find it's easier to have forge spirit and cold snap invoked for a sunrstrike hit, for me casting sunstrike before cold snap is harder to ss to land.
Well, I think Ateezys Invoker is better at farming (he is for sure one of the best at that) and he is ofc solid in terms of hitting spells but by far not as fluid in his combos as other top invokers like w33 or miracle. But enough about that, Secret rly has bigger problems than Artours detailed invoker skills.
About QE: I think it's about having sunstrike ready for opportunities on other lanes, so you don't have to extra invoke for that and then switch it around for the lane. Also what is sometimes usefull, ss gives vision, so if the enemy runs uphill you sunstrike and can then cast cs. (Also rly nice against furion, ez sunstrike in the sprout then cancel tp with cs).
For the lane you also want to have forge spirits to harass and only want to use coldsnap when committing a bit more, so you don't have to have cs ready at any point whereas ss can happen more often, if your team has some setups on the other lanes.
And about ss before coldsnap: when you use sunstrike last to catch a fleeing enemy, it's somewhat more obvious, where as you start with ss it can be more of a surprise. Also you can control the target a bit with cs so, you ss and if you see he is a bit to fast to get hit by it, then you can use coldsnap so he eventually gets slowed enough to get hit.
I watched some miracle games and he uses both orders, so from that I guess there is not much of a difference. But I saw he is also fast enough to swap spells around to preserve the cooldown while the enemy is in tornado, so yeah, he can do whatever he wants.
me doing it with emp + coldsnap and catch the enemy with turnado if run or ice wall if come near me ? am i weird ? and i think turnado first isnt effective cause the damage not gut enough and your attack with coldsnap is shit
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So, when going a quas-wex build you normally run around with coldsnap and tornado invoked (if not in ghostwalk) to have very good catch.
My question is: which order coldsnap - tornado or tornado - coldsnap. From most pro-players I see tornado - coldsnap but my problem with this is: if you initiate with tornado, you then have to wait for the target to come down to cast coldsnap and then invoke emp, which wastes about 1.7s invoke cd.
An example for this: https://youtu.be/fqAw1027HE0?t=13m37s
(tbh in this clip he had no time to switch it around, but as I mostly see this order, it still shows the problem)
(also you could of course cast tornado, invoke coldsnap (no cd, only swap), invoke emp, cast emp... but why to take this extra effort?)
Because of this I always have coldsnap - tornado invoked: cast tornado, invoke emp, cast emp, target comes down - cast coldsnap.
Is there any reasoning I don't see about the order of those spells?
Would be very interested to discuss this.