General DiscussionA Question For High Skilled Players

You might think that ur a good invoker when in reality ur just sub standard, conclusion dont pick invoker against am unless you have a 60%^ winrate against am. There are way more braindead heroes that can destroy an am in mere seconds rather than pretending ur good at invoker with all ur flashy skills.

your problem seems to be spamming
it can be really effective at times but it will eventually make you lose all your games because of people banning your heroes that are spammed
that is one of the main reasons why badman(the known spectre spammer) had such a hard time finding a pro-team even while being on top of the ladder boards
there is no value to spamming other than short term success, as in mmr gain

change up a bit, get some viable non-voker heroes in your gaming diet and become better with them

also am i currently really hard to handle, the mid however can do little to stop this since am is not a mid hero per se
offlaner and supps/roamers have to shut him down early and you should try to control him during the game, otherwise it is quite impossible to handle him in the current meta(implying he knows what he is doing)

overall he isn't that op tho, you just need to shut him down in time

Octarine probably shouldnt be a standard item for you after aghs.. but I'm not an invoker player so w.e

Against Am, you offer viable solutions to stopping him. But as with all good advice, it really depends on your lineup vs theirs.

For argument sake let's say lineup is not important and u have to focus AM. The thing about Tping back is u have to make sure he cannot get the jump on u. Linkens is helps because usually he will abyssal u and ur dead in seconds. If he cannot lock u down u have many tools ready, tornado deafening blast ghost walk. Ur presence shd be enough to deter him and if need be, chase him Down until ur team arrives.

Hex is definitely an important pickup if u absolutey must deal with am. But I mean AM can just pick up linkens of his own so this is more of a timing and surprise element. Although I don't expect an invoker to be able to solo an am with alacrity cold snap. He will just blink away. U need to Ensure u do your initiation if your team can follow up. So ignore him and try to kill his team would seem more reasonable.

if invoker is banned, get lc. easy win against am. if u are a really skilled invoker, dealing with am shoukdnt be a problem at all. its all about item choices

you can't solo kill him he got spell shield, unless you got hex and orchid. I've checked your recently game against AM, I think you lose not because of AM but because of storm jumping to your support heroes like magi and omni. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3601218375 you had a perfect item choice, linken and euls.

from the game https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3600993456, its not cause by you. viper and drow at the same lane is very devastating phoenix and void. and some more your void went for midas, against viper's maelstorm and drow helm dominator + his aura :D

your item build is really good. like euls and force staff riki and puck with bloodthorn. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3598653910 with bounty hunter abanddon your team.

I think you should pick invoker wisely. Invoker needs to be in a team with early game harrassment. where you can focus your farm while waiting for sunstrike's opportunity. Since invoker can really last hit and deny, try buying ward and deward by yourself. this will help your support to get utility items for you as well...eg. force staff, urns, mech, or even tome of knowledge for levels in preparation of mid game.

for me overall you are good.

@jacked, thank you. A few more questions if you don't mind. What if we're sieging the final towers and there are great highground defenders such as Pudge, Sniper etc. and the AM is splitpushing our final towers? Sniper in particular clears a creepwave so fast and zones us out its not even funny. While we're in a deadlock waiting for wave after wave to merely chip their towers, AM is taking rax. So we all tp back and AM disengages. This repeats ad infinitum and we feel the game slipping away to the point where they have the initiative and we're sitting at base. What am I doing wrong here, as Invoker?

@Zemo-san, I know this is my shortcoming, but what can I say, I play dota to play Invoker, love that hero design. I may learn other heroes but I have the most fun playing Invoker. So that even when I lose I'm not angry that I lost. Surely the element of winning and the element of having fun need not be mutually exclusive?

@Mckenzie Johan, thank you so much for checking out my recent games, means a lot to me when you went through all that trouble. Your conclusion is Invoker shouldn't be picked every game. I definitely agree with you there as even I feel constricted of farm space when I have a very defensive team of heroes who will not be active around the map and make plays (dazzle, sniper etc.). I tend to lose more often than not in those matches, and the ones I win are because of the enemy team's mistakes, and not my outplays. But brother, I cannot help it :P To me dota really is all about playing Invoker, so if you say I will forever be stuck in 3k because of my one-hero pool I will be most disappointed to hear that.

@MID, perhaps that is my problem. I am skilled on relatively equal terms to AM, but not MORE skilled than him, which is why I cannot handle the countering nature of his hero against my hero. Could you please expand upon what I can do in detail, if you don't mind?

there is nothing wrong with spamming a hero if you like playing him, but your question was about how to improve, and unless you start getting versatile, there isn't much you can do about it

people are so used to watch this sumiya guy that they ignore him being a decent player on other heroes as well

I generally come back to this advice so I will give it to you too: first try to learn all roles and be comfortable in at least 2 heroes on that role, after that start spamming a certain role(irrelevant which one tbh) for some time
after that go through the all hero challenge 2 times(to make sure you don't ge a lucky win on the first try)

the insight and the knowledge in playing each hero in the game will give can't be surpassed by any other improvement method in my opinion

I do suppose that's the correct way to improve in this game. I cannot be so bullheaded as to first pick invoker every game and expect to improve on a noticeable scale. If you say there is no way around this formal training, shall we call it, I will be sure to think it through. Many thanks once again for participating in the discussion.

its all about analyzing whats in the enemy team: their builds, what their skills does exactly(u need to know in detail how long or how the skill works eg. can be dispelled or not
sorry but there isnt a step by step guide to play. its all about analyzing and improvisation, in otger words u have to be versatile in both heroes and item builds. i believe those who play the same build every game doesnt improve in their skill.

It's simple. Can u kill their team faster than am can take rax? If not don't try to push. repeat it for infinity until he messes up and u catch him, kill him and then u push. A 3k am
Can't possibly be that good Lul.

Try your best to keep all lanes pushed before u barrel down a lane to go HG.

The same rule applies against annoying hg defenders + split pushers. Don't be a pus.sy and chip their tower. Man up Dive them 5v4 wipe those suckers with aegis to back u up and am should need to tp back. If he doesn't come back just go throne ez.

Alright, I understand. I don't go to push HG if all other lanes are not pushing. I wait for AM to come splitpush and try to de-push as much as I can. In the meantime, what does my team do? If everyone is just waiting for AM in the base, arent we giving up map control? In that case, should everyone split push different lanes and TP back if AM turns up to push our HG?

Assuming u are in advantage and u have complete map control.. You push 2 lanes till the enemy base. Am will try to split push the other lane. You tp to defend and your team backs up towards you. Your team will also cut the waves of the said lane that at first was ignored. At this point you will push a lot faster than am, that will need to tp base and push from scratch another lane. if the enemy team doesn't have a tinker you will be able to take rax and tp back to def the lane am is splitting.

got it, boss. Does need some coordination though. Guess I got to unmute my team for that haha.

Invoker can clear waves pretty quick too. It should not be so easy for am to rat. As already mentioned u can just camp outside their enemy base even all 3 lanes if enemy is turtling. Am can only cut that one lane and u can cut it right back before u go hg which would delay his push.

If u tp back or someone else tps back, you're not supposed to all go to the same spot and fail to catch him while he just blinks away. your team and you can try and come from behind to cut off his escape path. Eg tp to the shrine if it's still up.

"I only lose ranked games if my best hero Invoker is banned."

My answer to you is to diversify your heroes more. Having 2 or 3 heroes at least in each position really helps in situations like this. This is coming from a fellow Invoker spammer. Well we can't be good enough at this hero can we :X not to mention its pretty fun too.

"Or if the enemy has a good Antimage."

I believe there is a thread recently that inquired if Invoker is a first pick material, I'd suggest you give it a read as it may change the way you think about Invoker in this meta. First picking Invoker leads to drafts that make your games tilt, and not adding to the fact picking Invoker into AM is an abomination beyond abysmal.

"My question is in asking whether it is my job to counter Antimage and build accordingly, or should I build normally the standard BoT, Agha, Blink, Octarine?"

You don't counter AM per se, Invoker isn't made nor built to counter spell shield and high mobility heroes. However, should you encounter this scenario (and hopefully you didn't pick Invoker into AM), you got to understand how AM works in a game, and that's why I said diverse your hero pool by the way, you won't know how to play against AM without knowing how to play AM. I am definitely not be the best coach here, but I hope a perspective on how I deal (or try to) with AM can shed some light on your path.

Understanding how AM works, he would want to get his bfury asap, and subsequently manta to split push effectively. Your most ideal window is before he finishes his manta which can dispel most statuses inflicted. Even then, AM typically wants to get another big item before wanting to join fights. However, without a rotation an Invoker will still have difficulty sniping him off, especially if he has points in his spell shield. Also, failing to secure any kills/objective while rotating to gank AM is the worst scenario. Typically in a game like this I'd generally gather to secure roshan and push high after getting aghs to abuse the fact that its a 4v5 scenario with their highest net worth hero split pushing, and I've just hit my biggest power spike (aegis + aghs). Trading a tier 2 tower or 2 for one melee rax is more worth in my opinion and also leaving their shrines exposed. One of the things I often remind myself is to never let up the pressure for the other 4 in their team. Generally, an Invoker's itemization never really differ much, BoT is great at stopping huge waves pushing in especially with double wagons now, Aghs is a 101% core. However OC that early may not be as cost effective as you may want to think, I feel sometimes a hex or shivas, and at times bkb gives more utility than rushing OC. AM will always be ahead in terms of net worth, but rather than spending resources stopping him I find it easier to shut his team down leaving him the dilemma to continue split pushing without a confirmed set of rax or join the fight risking a hefty death for the team.

The solution to antimage is to kill him

Either itemize to kill him (orchid+nullifier or hex+RFO) or gank him with your team or trade objectives favorably by having ur team hit rax with alacrity

Not an invoker player sorry

Also who tps back is very game - dependent

The solution is to not pick invoker against am. Actually don't pick invoker at all if u want to win

so u tellin me all that time I didnt want to win? I was fp invoker LUL

@chinese script, i dont know how else to pronounce it lol, thank you very much for your detailed analysis. In summation, let AM do his thing while we constantly force fights is something I'll try now.

idk about u but untill am gets at least 3 items as invoker I dont give a shit about him. I farm my aghs and after that I try to push every tower with my team and end the game, if u see am before he gets manta that's usually a kill, alacrity, snap, meteor and usually that's enough if not you can either catch him with tornado and ss or just use ss if u feel comfy. Late game he's not a super huge issue either, unless your picks suck and it's a dream game for him, you have to buy hex against him.

As a mostly support player, I can't really say much in regards to Invoker, but the best way to deal with AM is to take out his team and push. AM prefers to be in a situation where people chase him while he splitpushes, however while he's away his team is in a 4v5 situation, which you should win unless they are far ahead.

The biggest problem as invoker vs am is invoker gives too much space to am to farm and will usually get out farmed by an AM. That's just invoker and the nature of the hero trying to farm up his own items. Dogshit hero in general unless way ahead from laning stage

OP, hope you get to read this amidst the walls of text.
As an Invoker player, (by far more games on him than any other heroes) I can confidently say that Invoker is not a good hero to grind MMR with. Now the hero is a great tool to learn DotA in general! To be even a decent Invoker, you have to have good map awareness, farm ability, knowing when to push, reflexes, and piano hands. But DO NOT grind with him.

The hero is easily countered by a few (common) mid heroes, including Tinker and Storm Spirit, and is also countered by some common Pos 1 heroes, including Anti-Mage like you said. The issue with Anti-Mage is the catch. He will know you are coming, and unless you can land a perfect Hex combo (which if you have Hex by the time you are able to solo-kill him, you should have won the game already), you need to just push with your team, alacrity and Forge Spirits.
There isn't really a special build to play against AM. Your best hope is to keep pressure on him and starve him from 15 minutes on. Also, I would skip buying BoT before Agh's. Dunno if you do that or not, just my advice.

A whole team should not go out of their way to counter a single hero. My advice is to draft fluidly (changing where you need changes), and play fluidly. I mean, you can recognize in advance that AM will be farming the jungle right after his Battlefury, so you know you can ward it and gank with a smoked support (that has a stun). Similarly, you know Chaos Knight will want to fight and push as often as his ult is up, so you need to make sure you have wave clear, and you can dodge his ult. Things like that.

And yeah, I AM HIGH SKILL NOW!
Good evening!
~Snu

Of course I'm reading it all. This forum turned out quite helpful. Thank you for all your replies. I will take everything to heart and see what needs to be improved.

vs am i'd rather pick in order to make sure i crush my lane and have space to pressure him before he got bf. theres nothing more frustrating than a qop with orchid diving your under tier 2 when you dont have a manta yet
oh and i encourage my supports to play 2-1-2 or even go agressive tri / have a selfdependant carry so the sups can roam mid/bot

works as long as the offlaner doesnt feed ofc
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3602714110

well punish him in early to not live such situations in the late like you can change your build with phase and eul/atos or just get your support together with smoke

and you can cut the lane which he is pushing solo

I am at lower mmr, but I see a lot of people focusing on countering an AM pick specifically and getting ran by the other heroes

Did you think aboutaybe instead of trying to shut down the AM, exploit his neednfor a space?
Pick a tempo hero that can pressure the rest of the team, force the AM to not being able to safely free farm for leaving his team to 4v5

Unless you yourself have strong split pushers, don't play the split push game, unless you have a strong late game hero, don't play to the late game, you can't beat a chess GM in chess, so beat him on poker

Teamfight early, take objectives, force him into a reactive play, and play on timer, don't drag the game if it doesn't achieve you anything
Focusing on countering the AM is what makes a team lose against AM