thing with cask is that even tho it bounces on ur creeps, its often better for to bounce between heroes
basically creeps absorbing bounces isnt always bad for the hero with said creeps
u can see based on all the wd counter picks to lycan not succeeding very much imo
As a CM player, i agree with you. CM is not a "pseudo" counter to Chen. I would pick a different support to counter Chen.
@i am numb, yeah i can understand the thought process behind 'Creeps tank casks, i can send back maeledict'd targets' However realisitcally it is a really hard matchup. 5 second stun on your creeps is essentially removing them from the fight so they just die by AOE nukes midgame. in the early game you don't really stop chen from doing chen things, but early-midgame that matchup gets really really hard for the chen player. Especially because maeledict is a 'dot' sending olmate ursa home wont always save him in the well.
Chen likes going up against supports that can't depush or cant deal with his creeps.
On paper, jakiro/kotl is good because he can 'depush' however realistically in the early game those creeps are going to hit you and your carry and that doesn't feel great.
WD also has kill potential on a Chen during midgame which is always nice to have on a support.
Correct me if im wrong, but i remmber some pro team who had the same idea about cask stun on creeps and wanted to utilize it to stop lycan rating, but it didnt work becaise of how unpredictable cask bounces are.
So isnt better to just go with some heavy aoe nukers or enchantress/ helm of dominator?
No enchantress, helm of dominator wouldn't work chen can just take the creeps back picking support to counter chen is useless counter the carries and let them handel chen with some aoe nuke
Even an ES would be more than enough for chen it wouldn't kill the creeps but it will put u at a big disadvantage
While i agree somewhat towards letting carries deal with chen in the mid to lategame a good chen won't give you that opportunity to get there without an active support counter, eg. Earth shaker, whom is a melee hero in the laning phase would just get run at by a hellbear/satyre and stay level 2 forever, sure if the shaker gets a good game he'll be in a position to shutdown the 15min 3-4 wagon push, but before then you are losing every tower with not alot of counter play.
Just pick ranged nuker like Zeus and Lina so Chen have a hard time pushing before he got the health talent
As I spam Chen a lot, I can say that WD and Kotl are pretty annoying to deal with. Escpecially casky. Cm is just a creep as soon as you hit lvl 3.
But most of the times I ban phoenix or Tinker. Phoenix combined with any stun-lock combo make Chen super useless.
In reality people usually pick Tinker or Es agaisnt me. It a 50/50 match-up. With greaves and well timed pipe -there should not be much problems with going hg. In fact this items + Hand of God, totaly negates shaker echo initiation.
frostbite is really good early on. if you stop chen from pressuring the lane, his effectiveness drops a lot and its much harder for him to do it without creeps.
^ Its true unless you are 3 lvl and are lucky to get Troll with Ensnare and Satyr/Centaur/Tomato.
Cm players usually panic and use frostbite on Troll right after you used net which makes 0 difference. Besides you can always smoke gank mid if their safe is hard.
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I've been seeing very frequently a CM into the chen as the 'sudo' counter towards the hero. Don't get me wrong, i would rarely say no to having a CM as a support option for my team, (everybody likes mana). However as a chen player i rarely feel pressured by having a CM and usually that hero becomes walking food as the power gap closes. Mudgolems > CM and if you're too far behind on a cm it is only a matter of time till all my cores can solo kill you.
Isn't Witch doctor just a better option? playing against a WD as chen/ench feels significantly harder in my opinion.