General Discussion

General Discussion33 tp scrolls used against me in 3k Bloodseeker game.

33 tp scrolls used against me in 3k Bloodseeker game. in General Discussion
Born

    Its a pretty common item on seeker.

    Quick maffs

      God fucking dammit, my days of arguing about bullshit are over but there are so many items that are better than radiance on BS.

      Personally i think treads, blademail, bkb or s&y ( or any other tanking item ).

      Euls is SO, SO BAD.

      You waste 2,7k gold to be able to silence ( and nuke i guess ) someone ?

      Welt aus Eis

        Mana regen is fucking useless on bs, if you want it so badly get an aquila it's more than enough

        Joller

          again Sampson the useless chicken leg eating kfc hustler is trahs talking xaxaxa

          Born

            Its not really useless, and you get mana pool. Ulti and silence cost all of his mana without euls. And ulti has like 1 minute cd. Are you gonna run back to base every minute?

            Besides you secure silence, you prevent tps, you can be way more versatile with it. As bs you gonna do a lot of solo fighting, euls helps there so you dont get kited to death.

            Welt aus Eis

              What's the go to skill build atm? I've been going for 4-1-4 just because race car mode is op

              Relentless

                Euls is not really that commonly used on Bloodseeker. 4.878 Million BS games this month. 30% of games used blademail. Only 1.3% used Euls. But you do see it much more commonly at higher MMR because people use tp in time to escape. At lower MMR they don't use the tp fast enough and you just kill them before it completes.

                I think Euls is a sub-optimum choice. It makes solo-ganking certain targets easy for a while in mid-game since you can hit your silence on non-blink heroes, but at Very High level there will be support opposing you and using Euls gives them 2.5 seconds to tp in or move into position to you counter stun you. And once bkbs are done you won't land the silence anyway, despite Euls.

                If you are having trouble with people tping out as Bloodseeker then really you need to change how and when you attack and who you choose to rupture. Attack when an ally with a stun is within 3 seconds of cast range for instance. The silence is better used for zoning or initiating a teamfight. Rupture + Blademail is best for early ganking.

                In the example game, I canceled tp scrolls easily with MKB procs late game. Usually I would say get basher, into abyssal. But I was against a windrunner so MKB was the best choice. It's more likely to cancel a tp scroll with procs (35% vs 25%). Once you have abyssal the stun is certain - that's really the optimal choice for BS lategame.

                Welt aus Eis

                  If you hit your ult and silence than a support tping in will just get you another kill, since you'll have like 700 ms and 150 dmg

                  Relentless

                    The most popular build is actually 0-4-4... but that's because low MMR players can't lasthit and therefore can't heal.

                    I like 4-1-4 best. It gives you the most damage output earliest with a value point of silence for zoning supports.

                    Supports can actually counter stun you before you get a kill that way Sano. Lower skill supports will fail. But even someone who is moderately on top of things (ie I do it to opposing BS a lot) can prevent them from getting a kill. You just need to have the right support and be aware.

                    If BS uses euls, that's the time required to tp in and position... the target has taken merely the silence dmg from the nuke at this point, BS is still several seconds from finishing the kill. He won't make it if he tries to do it solo vs two players, one of whom has disable + nukes. When you cast Rupture I started tping...so I am there when they come down from Euls. now you get stunned and have two heroes hitting you with dmg amp on yourself - the BS dies first. The critical thing is, how fast does support respond. The higher the MMR, the better the support players, the faster the response, the weaker Euls gets.

                    So you should attack with an ally, as BS. And the ally has the stun - thus Euls is pointless. You just go rupture + bmail + silence and if they try to tp, the ally stuns them.

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                    Relentless

                      On Builds, the healing from lasthits is extremely strong now. https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1522635020

                      This game I lane against weaver, lina, and windrunner who are all constantly attacking and nuking me. I didn't even buy regen.

                      King of Low Prio

                        'The most popular build is actually 0-4-4... but that's because low MMR players can't lasthit and therefore can't heal. '

                        the stupidity is rising

                        quity

                          2-1-4 to 2-4-4 Q-E-W-E-E-R-Q-E-W-W-R-W-Q-Q

                          you get levels so fast with this guy that it doesn't even matter.

                          Relentless

                            It's just the facts Sampson. That build is more than twice as common as the next most common build. Low MMR players are not stupid, they just can't lasthit. Since they can't do it, getting the nuke over the heal is actually the smart choice. Those who try to heal and fail the lasthits lose games by feeding in the laning stage.

                            The right builds and the right items are not the same for everyone.

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                            King of Low Prio

                              'Low MMR players are not stupid'

                              Welt aus Eis

                                'low mmr players can't last hit'
                                Wrong, their problem generally isn't mechanics but decision making

                                Relentless

                                  Sampson there are many things you are terrible at doing. Representing yourself cogently in writing is one of those things. Does this mean you are stupid? I say no. I'm sure that you are fully capable of thinking your way through the typical activities to need to perform to live your life. You are able to play and consistently win a complex 5 v 5 real time strategy game. You are clearly not stupid, just because you fail in a certain area to express yourself well.

                                  King of Low Prio

                                    Compared to 6k MMR players in relation to dota I am stupid. Is that a hard concept for you to grasp?

                                    5k, 6k are SUBHUMAN

                                      if u can't last hit then doesn't it make any sense to skip your q. i have never seen anyone go 0-4-4 on bs and i pray to lord jesus that i never have to see that day

                                      there's no "one thing" that separates a 3k from 4k, 4k from 5k, 5k from 6k, etc. i've seen some 4k's last hit decently and farm way better than low 5k's but run in and die at the 40 minute mark cuz their map awareness/game sense is atrocious

                                      anyways this thread is absurd, it's not like TP'ing out from bloodseeker's ult is anything phenomenal. keep in mind bloodseeker is one of the king of pub picks down in the 1k/2k brackets, and if you train a dog to fear a master enough times, it will cower before him and react appropriately

                                      you don't need to type essays and grand analyses to answer a question like "why do 3k's know how buy tp's to counter rupture?"

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                                      Joller

                                        @Sampson
                                        sthu stuped kfc hustler

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                                        Quick maffs

                                          Well, ok i guess u can stop tp´s with euls, but still seems like such a waste of gold.

                                          Anyway skill build seems to be Q-E-E-Q leave 2 points in Q max E and after that max silence, like 2-4-4.

                                          King of Low Prio

                                            @Joller

                                            Europeans cant properly insult north americans it just looks laughable when you try and translate it

                                            Relentless

                                              Don't worry Frozen, you won't see it. It is by far the more popular build, but you never see the average dota player anywhere near your games. Even at 3k, people are getting at least one point in bloodrage., usually at level 1.

                                              Sampson you are mistaken that 6k players are "smarter". You are confusing intelligence with perception. A 6k player is someone who can "read the stiches on a fastball". Because they more accurately perceive the game they make better decisions. 2k players are not stupid. They are making bad decisions because they can't see the game. They make a choice based on what they think they know, but what they perceived was not close enough to reality for them to make a good judgment.

                                              Now it is true that new players make lots of bad decisions, but after several hundred games they remain 2k MMR because they can't see the game. Even after they know what to do, they still can't do it. Most people will be able to move up to 2.5k with experience, a fair amount can get into the upper 2ks. But only 10% reach 3.2k. 90% of people are not stupid, but they are slow compared to the elite players.

                                              Now if this was a test of math skills instead of finger reactions, I would be in the top 0.0001% and it might be easy to be deceived into thinking everyone was a bunch of morons. In fact I did think that when I was a child. But as I became less self-centered I learned that there is a big difference between those who are truly mentally handicapped, people who are ordinary, and people who are simply above average but not truly geniuses. It's not accurate to describe everyone as stupid if they don't think systems of differential equations are trivially easy to solve in your head.

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                                              npc
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                                                King of Low Prio

                                                  You are annoying to debate because you turn simple concepts into long boring essays. Intelligence is relative to content. For example our scientific paradigm is structured around the known universe. That same intelligence becomes worthless within the unknown universe. Dota has its own intelligence standard and while mechanical skills are important the higher your dota intelligence is the higher your skill will increase in the game

                                                  Relentless

                                                    Since you have re-defined intelligence to mean "mechanical skills" - I would agree. By that definition 6k players are smarter.

                                                    What you actually wrote is an incoherent mess. But what it means is you already agreed with me from the beginning, you just don't want to admit it or recognize it because its emotionally uncomfortable.

                                                    npc
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                                                      King of Low Prio

                                                        get your reading glasses on old man

                                                        Metallicize

                                                          when i try to write a long ass comment i lose the intention after 3-4 sentences and become too lazy to write the rest

                                                          i think this is good for my health

                                                          SalaciousCrome

                                                            I have to agree with Sampson on this. There are different types of intelligence and all knowledge is relative to the circle its relevant in.

                                                            Pom Pom 🍕

                                                              I don't think you should use the item winrate for each hero as an argument since Naga has the lowest winrate with radiance and is one of (if not the) best radiance carrier in the game. It's like battlefury on anti-mage

                                                              Radiance used to be popular because he can heal whenever a creep or hero dies from the burn, not really for chasing with the burn... Bloodrage makes him very easy to kill now though (and heals 25% rather than 40% from hero kills), so you need a blademail or some tank items (S&Y, BKB are great) to manfight, or you just die in two nukes. Eul with your silence can also stop you from being bursted down since they obviously can't cast anything unless purging themself (stopping tp escape is also cool as mentioned).

                                                              Another item I've seen people go is dagon since your bloodrage at max level is basically like eblade that doesn't ethereal your target (if you use bloodrage on both self and enemy you basically get a max level dagon from dagon 1 too. 784 magic damage.).

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                                                              Dire Wolf

                                                                Wow guys, it's not fucking complicated at all, both sides are way over analyzing it.

                                                                Radiance used to be a better item on bloodseeker because of how old blood bath worked. You could run around the map and the constant radiance ticking would kill creeps and heal you. You could be retreating and run through jungle and get healed running circles around camps. Also hero kills close to bs gave a ton more healing and bloodseeker didn't need to get the kill, just be close. The new bloodrage still allows you to get healed but you have to score the blow, you take more dmg in meantime, and healing from heroes is less. So it's not as good as it used to be (That said the miss rate buff to radiance makes it a stronger item in general).

                                                                Still it's quite obvious why it has such a high win rate, because it's a huge investment with zero build up. It is not easy to build. If you manage to bank 3800g to buy relic you are probably winning the match regardless. It means you are farming well enough without dying much in between.

                                                                It's not a bad item, there are better ones, but just the ability to farm it means your team is doing well thus high win rate. If you were losing the match you probably never even get to relic.

                                                                Eul's seems dumb to me but never tried it or seen it done. Bloodseeker already moves insanely fast and you can just get a basher to stop tps. Proc rate on basher is pretty high, should be enough unless someone presses tp instantly and you're unlucky.

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                                                                Metallicize

                                                                  http://en.www.dotabuff.com/matches/1514528287

                                                                  our only phys damage hero went euls, thats when i knew we fucking lost

                                                                  Born

                                                                    I honestly dont care what people in lower bracket do. Im telling you what good players do.
                                                                    http://www.dotabuff.com/players/159134689/matches?date=&hero=bloodseeker&skill_bracket=&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&faction=&duration=&timezone=America%2FLos_Angeles

                                                                    If this idiot who plays nothing but bs managed to climb to 7k and makes euls almost every game, take his advice on it if not mine.

                                                                    Relentless

                                                                      Kitrak you misread and misrepresented me so badly that you wrote the opposite of my statements. That is why they seem contradictory in your mind. It's because you reversed the meaning. Much like ordinary players can't see the game and therefore cannot comprehend and react to it appropriately, you cannot read and comprehend complex sentences quickly. I do not believe this proves you are stupid or don't know English. Most likely you just did not take the time required for someone of your lower skill level to apprehend the meaning. You will have to slow down, panic less, and digest the material.

                                                                      ---------------------------------
                                                                      Havoc, while you are correct that there are different types of intelligence defining intelligence so broadly as to include mechanical skills makes the concept too diffuse and obscure to be useful. In this case, most 6k players are not any better at analyzing why they win or lose than 2k players. They just do things and experientially gravitate to what works. Some 6k players understand why, most don't. Knowing and understanding is not needed to take action and succeed. In fact even most advancements in technology are made with definitely, provably false understanding underlying the advancement. People think they knew what they were doing, but all they really know is that it worked and so they do it again.

                                                                      Currently there are major, in my opinion obvious, flaws in nearly every area of scientific thought. Relativity, quantum mechanics, big bang cosmology, plate tectonics, macro-evolution, man-made global warming and so many other modern accepted standards in scientific thought are flatly contradicted by experimental evidence and logically, internally self-contradictory. Even the application of measurement techniques is frequently irrational in scientific publications. But apparently few people are able to notice this. I have encountered only a handful of Ph.Ds who were able to see such errors on their own before I pointed them out. Most just believe what they were taught and can't actually understand it on their own.

                                                                      -----------------------------------------------------
                                                                      Pomi, you are correct that item winrate for a hero does not show that it is a good choice in general. However, what I said is simply that radiance is a good item for bloodseeker in low MMR games. That is what the dotabuff stats mean when they show radiance as the dominate build for pubs numerically and in terms of winrate.

                                                                      -----------------------
                                                                      Xan, the best options change depending on how fast you are and how fast your opponents are. Arteezy makes euls SF brilliant, but most 4k players can't time it right.

                                                                      It's fine if you don't care about what low MMR players should do. But they still are pretty much everyone who reads this website and I write for everyone, not just you.

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                                                                      Welt aus Eis

                                                                        Every single 4k player can time euls requiem combo right, I don't know why you're so fixated with this idea that people are actually monkeys who cannot press buttons or click correctly. The problem with the majority of Dota players is decision and game sense and that's what separated good from bad 90% of the time

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                                                                        King of Low Prio

                                                                          at no point did I ever group mechanical skills with dota intelligence try reading it again.

                                                                          King of Low Prio

                                                                            He is stuck in his own little bubble where is old hands cant move as fast as a younger person and he believes that if his hands moved faster he would be a professional dota 2 player.

                                                                            Relentless

                                                                              No Sano, if you actually watched them do it you would see that nearly all 4k players do not time it right. Unless you consider getting it right merely not casting it before euls ends. I can fstaff away and be hit by almost no damage from requiem because players do not time it perfectly enough.

                                                                              No Sampson this has nothing to do with me at all. It has to do with helping people understand the game. I have no plans to try to become pro. It has never been and never will be important to me to be dota player of XXXX caliber. You clearly did conflate intelligence with mechanical skills and that is in fact the entire reason you have been attempting to disagree with me for over a year. It is that same convolution which leads other high MMR forum posters to take offense and react emotionally when I explain that they are faster than ordinary people.

                                                                              Some people take pride in being good at this game and attach such personal significance to it that they tie their self-worth and intelligence to their dota scores. That is why they are mad about what I write on the subject. They feel that it devalues their image of themselves. But most people really do not attach their self-worth to their MMR. That's an abnormal psychological problem, and in fact one that inhibits you from fulfilling your potential in dota and in life.

                                                                              Sano say, "The problem with the majority of Dota players is decision and game sense and that's what separated good from bad 90% of the time " and this is quite correct. But you must realize the reason they make the wrong decision (or rather sub-optimal decisions) is that they can't see the game and can't click it if they could see it. People know they screwed up when they watch it on a replay. They know the moves they saw a pro player do were good. They just can't see it at full speed and can't decide in time and can't act in time to copy what they see the pro player do.

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                                                                              Giff me Wingman

                                                                                Relentless, stop. My chest hurts.

                                                                                succuba

                                                                                  I have a 4K friend playing on US region, from what I saw- most 4k invokers do EUL > SS > METEOR > BLAST easily.

                                                                                  Same goes for SF eul into requiem. If 4k US players can do it... anyone can do it.

                                                                                  Relentless is over-complicating everything so much. Old man needs a drink or something, give that nigga hot sake.

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                                                                                  5k, 6k are SUBHUMAN

                                                                                    actually that's the only thing those players seem capable of

                                                                                    either the eul/ss/meteor/blast combo or tornado/emp/cold snap all game long

                                                                                    #noobjectivegaming

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                                                                                    succuba

                                                                                      ^
                                                                                      y u editsomuch

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                                                                                      5k, 6k are SUBHUMAN

                                                                                        cuz i want to keep my posts more concise

                                                                                        every time i type out an essay, i go back and read it 2 min later, and then i tell myself "tldr even i wouldn't want to read this"

                                                                                        succuba

                                                                                          Shit son!

                                                                                          Fallout 4 just got confirmed

                                                                                          casual gamer

                                                                                            idk why youd get euls when thats like 70% of a bkb or a blademail + change

                                                                                            if you want to get goofy int items get a dagon and double rage -> zap

                                                                                            Androgynous

                                                                                              set up silence, cancel tps, mana regen for W spam helps you farm a bit quicker, and flat movement speed synergises with thirst, while percentage increases have no effect on it. and if someone tps in to help the ruptured person, you can euls him to give you some extra time. that's my guess, although i don't play the hero.

                                                                                              5k, 6k are SUBHUMAN

                                                                                                you're better off just getting (choose 1: blademail/drums) and then (choose 1: bkb/sny) depending on how much magic damage/cc they have.

                                                                                                most of the time when you play bs you're not off ganking alone, there should be a lion or something close enough to u to hex the guy you ruptured (or some way to cancel tp)

                                                                                                Kurt

                                                                                                  GUYS ffs relentless is right in everything he is saying! please give up you're agruement

                                                                                                  Filthy

                                                                                                    Best build is Necro book , hotd, vlAds , Mek get centaur blood rage him and told stomp entire team Gg wp .

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